Heya
My TP and I meet once a week and have been trying to come up for a solution to the folsom prison/ gang boxer Trained Lead hand punch to face, eye jab, X lead hand strike, REAr hand stab to face, neck, heart/lungs...like a jab/cross combo...Just doing alive no consent drilling, FoF scenarios, mirror drill, opportunity drill ...Just looking for PURELY PHYSICAL Countermeasures in case of blindside ambush mind u, not factoring any precontact mindfucks.
The blade attack combo below demos the attack method and biomechanically looks like 15 secs, 45 secs, and 58 secs into this vid....the dude in 1:4 did the appropriate thing by descalating bc the perp gave him a change to use dialogue to descalate.But just wargaming in a worse case scenario where runnning, defusing was not possilbe.
Stabbed that NiRRRR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6DJkdwL2J4
We train it alive and noncooperative like CliveGirdham's Australian group does:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY_6nQT89vQ
While mixing in lead face shot,eye strike, stiff arm, and rear hand pump, slice to neck and other lead hand attacks and rear knife attack angles..But the ergonomics of the lead linear strike to face(to stun, blind) followed by rear linear stab to face,neck and other highline targets is a nightmare to deal with...and has been giving us the most trouble in terms of getting stuck in the face/neck multiple times ala linear cross/corkscre/overhand/right mechanics.. Rolling Eyes
Any tactical advice for overcoming this attack method in a worst case( where running, descalation, or blindside sucker stab you can provide Lee is greatly appreacited!
Thanks Lee
Warren
FaceMauler
thanks
W
How do u deal with this trained prison/gangbanger blade attack method Mr. Morrison?
FaceMualer- Posts: 5
Join date: 2008-07-30
- Post n°1
How do u deal with this trained prison/gangbanger blade attack method Mr. Morrison?
by FaceMualer on Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:09 pm
Lee Morrison- Posts: 54
Join date: 2008-06-16
- Post n°2
Re: How do u deal with this trained prison/gangbanger blade attack method Mr. Morrison?
by Lee Morrison on Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:33 am
Hi mate,
we all know that there are no guarantees when it comes to dealing with a blade unarmed; but there are a few workable methods out there that have a good probability of standing up, as long as certain other variables line up and you keep your head. Bottom line is, if someone knows what their doing with a blade, then you won't see it coming.
Ambush is always the favored method and if you don't see it coming, then of course all knowledge and skill is irrelevant. If you get ambushed, you've been stabbed, what happens next depends on how bad your hurt and how you deal with it psychologically, before any response in a physical sense can take place.
Observation and understanding is your only chance. Good awareness, understanding precursors to violence, weapon access and deployment etc is the only thing that will give you an early enough heads up to do something.
Let's say you can't escape, there's nothing to pick up and equalize with (chances are you can't think within such a time frame anyway) but you've seen the knife, negating the ambush but the subject is now equally committed. Well, put a knife into anyone's hand with bad intention and you've got your work cut out....
Put it into the hands of someone who knows what their doing and things can go from bad to f##king horrible in a blink. The jail house methods of striking the face/eyes with the off hand, shoving the subject off balance just before the attack, manipulating or turning the body as you control a limb before going sewing machine with the knife,
or tacking/lifting one leg as the knifer repeatedly attacks the femoral/butt and scrotum with the blade as he drives forward are all methods born from the prison environment and sound nightmarish to deal with.
The grab and stab mentality is an innate thing; we all like to hold and hit. In reality, working off the premise that the guy's is in front of you, you have inclination that there's a problem, well two things should be firmly in place, first your hands should be higher than his i.e. some kind of situational control and second you should be clocking where his hands are.
Can you see the hands/fingers? or is one slightly concealed? is his weight shifted? any of these things are a criteria to pre-empt in my opinion. If his intent is pre-mediated then chances are the knife is already to hand concealed, or he will access during the dialog (commonality to waistband or pocket area) you see any of these then nail the f##ker, if he's reaching for his smokes I'll apoligise later.
If he uses the off-hand as he access's or deploys and you have no understanding of that, well, then you will fixate on that stimulus and ultimately get stabbed, only chance now is (depending that it's not an immediately lethal entry) is to blitz forward and smash his to f##king pieces, then seek medical management quickly.
If the first entry is lethal, then chances are it's over. People die from knife attacks, because they see the blade or get cut (non-lethally) then immediately back up, thinking "oh God it's a knife!" in short they give up psychologically, this gives the knifer room to operate and employ the second, third, fourth stab etc that will then ultimately result in their demise.
So you have to install the mindset to "FIGHT" no matter what under such circumstances, what's the alternative? But I digress, in terms of dealing with that lead hand attack, being watchful of his hands, will make you responsive to anything moving in your direction.
In terms of dealing with a fast linear strike to the face with the addition of action over reaction, that can be difficult look at the fast jab popped into the face before the big right hand from a two guys arguing in the parking lot perspective, not from a boxing guard; difficult to negotiate.
The best option we've found under pressure comes from flanking, if that hand comes up to index as a strike, pointing finger gesture or an attempt to grab, "FLANK" to the outside of that limb, away from the loaded or weapon bearing side, as you attached to the subject, from here smash f##k out of his head until he's down.
If the subject gets a handle on you i.e. grabs a hold, forget trying to grab or negotiate the pump and retracting knife side it aint gonna happen, best chance again is to flank to the outside of the grabbing arm, only now you will have to violently manipulate the limb (suggest the elbow) to get to the outside.
The combination of ballistic manipulation to the joint followed by an immediate overwhelming assault should bring the fight back to you. No guarantee you won't get stabbed though. At the end of the day these are just my conclusions, based on what experience I've had with knives and the answers through pressure that we've come up with.
Hope it helps...peace
we all know that there are no guarantees when it comes to dealing with a blade unarmed; but there are a few workable methods out there that have a good probability of standing up, as long as certain other variables line up and you keep your head. Bottom line is, if someone knows what their doing with a blade, then you won't see it coming.
Ambush is always the favored method and if you don't see it coming, then of course all knowledge and skill is irrelevant. If you get ambushed, you've been stabbed, what happens next depends on how bad your hurt and how you deal with it psychologically, before any response in a physical sense can take place.
Observation and understanding is your only chance. Good awareness, understanding precursors to violence, weapon access and deployment etc is the only thing that will give you an early enough heads up to do something.
Let's say you can't escape, there's nothing to pick up and equalize with (chances are you can't think within such a time frame anyway) but you've seen the knife, negating the ambush but the subject is now equally committed. Well, put a knife into anyone's hand with bad intention and you've got your work cut out....
Put it into the hands of someone who knows what their doing and things can go from bad to f##king horrible in a blink. The jail house methods of striking the face/eyes with the off hand, shoving the subject off balance just before the attack, manipulating or turning the body as you control a limb before going sewing machine with the knife,
or tacking/lifting one leg as the knifer repeatedly attacks the femoral/butt and scrotum with the blade as he drives forward are all methods born from the prison environment and sound nightmarish to deal with.
The grab and stab mentality is an innate thing; we all like to hold and hit. In reality, working off the premise that the guy's is in front of you, you have inclination that there's a problem, well two things should be firmly in place, first your hands should be higher than his i.e. some kind of situational control and second you should be clocking where his hands are.
Can you see the hands/fingers? or is one slightly concealed? is his weight shifted? any of these things are a criteria to pre-empt in my opinion. If his intent is pre-mediated then chances are the knife is already to hand concealed, or he will access during the dialog (commonality to waistband or pocket area) you see any of these then nail the f##ker, if he's reaching for his smokes I'll apoligise later.
If he uses the off-hand as he access's or deploys and you have no understanding of that, well, then you will fixate on that stimulus and ultimately get stabbed, only chance now is (depending that it's not an immediately lethal entry) is to blitz forward and smash his to f##king pieces, then seek medical management quickly.
If the first entry is lethal, then chances are it's over. People die from knife attacks, because they see the blade or get cut (non-lethally) then immediately back up, thinking "oh God it's a knife!" in short they give up psychologically, this gives the knifer room to operate and employ the second, third, fourth stab etc that will then ultimately result in their demise.
So you have to install the mindset to "FIGHT" no matter what under such circumstances, what's the alternative? But I digress, in terms of dealing with that lead hand attack, being watchful of his hands, will make you responsive to anything moving in your direction.
In terms of dealing with a fast linear strike to the face with the addition of action over reaction, that can be difficult look at the fast jab popped into the face before the big right hand from a two guys arguing in the parking lot perspective, not from a boxing guard; difficult to negotiate.
The best option we've found under pressure comes from flanking, if that hand comes up to index as a strike, pointing finger gesture or an attempt to grab, "FLANK" to the outside of that limb, away from the loaded or weapon bearing side, as you attached to the subject, from here smash f##k out of his head until he's down.
If the subject gets a handle on you i.e. grabs a hold, forget trying to grab or negotiate the pump and retracting knife side it aint gonna happen, best chance again is to flank to the outside of the grabbing arm, only now you will have to violently manipulate the limb (suggest the elbow) to get to the outside.
The combination of ballistic manipulation to the joint followed by an immediate overwhelming assault should bring the fight back to you. No guarantee you won't get stabbed though. At the end of the day these are just my conclusions, based on what experience I've had with knives and the answers through pressure that we've come up with.
Hope it helps...peace
FaceMualer- Posts: 5
Join date: 2008-07-30
- Post n°3
Re: How do u deal with this trained prison/gangbanger blade attack method Mr. Morrison?
by FaceMualer on Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:33 pm
Thanls for ur time in posting such a detailed response Mr. Morrison. Yeah, I was fixated on purely PHYSICAL Countermeasure to the old prison trained Lead hand strike/rear hand stab to face,neck,heart ,lungs..But as u've mentioned, combate survival must always be linked to situational awareness and pre assault indictators! I'm gonna copy and paste ur response if you don't mind to the senshido board bc u state the reality of surviving edged weapons attack ...no whitewashing it..which is rare in this RBSD industry! RE:ur intention motto, this is correct ? "If he shows, he most likely won't use, if he doesn't display, he'll use?" Pardon if it's incorrect, but ur Counterknife DVD is packed with lifesaving info 
1)RE:ambush, True, Rich D. always says that noone is invincible unless ur Chuck Norris and if someone wants u dead, u will be walking down the street oneday,someone "accidently" bumps into you, and u bleed out 30 secs later
2)Re:Flanking:haha, like minds think alike Lee, bc of generative arthritis, my footwork is not as fast nor explosive as avg senshido/CST student so Rich made me imagine the knife TP's ass as a magnet and my hips as steel so...to acquire hips to ass ideally or hips to side postion ...away from the blade side
3)Urs is the first Counterknife DVD package I've purchased in 5 years Lee and it is worth it! My NYPD LEO buddies when they have the rare time to train are primarily concerned with Counterknife DT, then weapons retention,then suspect control!
I'll do a review n recommend that that the LEOs on the sen forum get ur Counterknife DVD after I rewatch it again!
4)Lee, U have really axehandle wide shoulders, if u have time, would u mind posting ur Shoulder workout
?? Thanks in advance. Richie Grannon also says that u have cool banter skills and the cocky funny to pull chicks so I'm working on both the physical and cocky and funny
thanks Lee
Warren
1)RE:ambush, True, Rich D. always says that noone is invincible unless ur Chuck Norris and if someone wants u dead, u will be walking down the street oneday,someone "accidently" bumps into you, and u bleed out 30 secs later
2)Re:Flanking:haha, like minds think alike Lee, bc of generative arthritis, my footwork is not as fast nor explosive as avg senshido/CST student so Rich made me imagine the knife TP's ass as a magnet and my hips as steel so...to acquire hips to ass ideally or hips to side postion ...away from the blade side
3)Urs is the first Counterknife DVD package I've purchased in 5 years Lee and it is worth it! My NYPD LEO buddies when they have the rare time to train are primarily concerned with Counterknife DT, then weapons retention,then suspect control!
I'll do a review n recommend that that the LEOs on the sen forum get ur Counterknife DVD after I rewatch it again!
4)Lee, U have really axehandle wide shoulders, if u have time, would u mind posting ur Shoulder workout
?? Thanks in advance. Richie Grannon also says that u have cool banter skills and the cocky funny to pull chicks so I'm working on both the physical and cocky and funnythanks Lee
Warren