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    Dogs don't know kung fu !

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    geordiedave

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    Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by geordiedave on Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:21 pm

    There has been one or two cases where someone has been mugged with a dog. Most of us are familiar with the reasoning some people get a rotweiller, akita, mastiff as a pet dog or even cross-breed a 'banned breed ' like a american pit-bull with a staffy. But what can you do if someone threatens to set such a type of dog onto you if you don't give them your wallet,ipod,mobile,etc.

    Dave Turton

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by Dave Turton on Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:58 am

    I used to teach 'dog' defence and once wrote an article about the subject

    I was bombarded with complaints from the animal rights brigade, RSPCA and other similar jokers..

    so now I only teach the stuff privately to my own high graded students

    suffice it to say there ARE methods you can employ, but a bit like dealing with a knife wielding attacker, where you probably WILL get cut, get attacked by a dog and you probably WILL get bitten

    The methods I taught followed similar lines to facing humans in thatt there are couple of things you can do (or at least try) pre-attack, and a couple of nasty bits you can do when/if attacked...
    most men can defeat most SINGLE dogs, but they wont look like 'winners' at the end

    geordiedave

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by geordiedave on Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:34 pm

    I used to work with a Scaffolder who was an ex 'para' and he told me when he was over in N.I. that they had to deal with rottweilers who were trained to go for camouflage.I asked him how they dealt with them and he said they used to shoot 'em. I don't know if this is a urban myth or not , but I recall someone saying that when, say a Alsatian is running to attack you as it jumps up grab it's legs and pull them wide apart and this will split it's chest and cause a heart attack !! The way I see it though is based on the Police Dog Handling Section who train the dog to bring some one down who is running away from them.So what you need to do is give it something it can bite its jaws onto.So you could take your jacket off wrap it around your left arm and as the dog is locked onto that put your 'ball point' pen into its neck or eyes a few times.I'm not sure about breaking a dogs neck though like a bull mastiff, but I can't see why it can't be done or for that matter using a ligature or a cheese - wire type of thing.

    Dave Turton

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by Dave Turton on Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:36 am

    the snapping open the legs things IS an urban myth mate.. ask Vets, they will tell you its impossible to cause heart attacks that way.
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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by Peter Skillen on Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:02 pm

    Dave you have got my attention as I too have been asked this question before ala the rise of dangerous dogs on the streets. Please elaborate on your dog defence.
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    Luke Mannion

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by Luke Mannion on Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:15 pm

    I work for the MOD as a dog handler, working with attack dogs that are trained to bite the arm (PAT dogs). With regards to the pulling the legs apart, I wouldn't fancy trying that for the obvious reasons 1) that the dogs mouth and teeth are quite a way in front of it's front legs and you'd be chewed to bits in the process and 2) like Dave said it's a myth.

    As to the second option, just wrapping your forearm in a jacket and letting the dog bite would result in horrific injuries, people underestimate the force dogs jaws can generate, and apart from the obvious soft tissue damage you'd suffer crushed radius and ulnas. We use protective sleeves for baiting and you can feel the pressure generated through them, a good bite will still leave you with a bruised arm through bite pressure alone.
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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by Peter Skillen on Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:06 pm

    Luke what would you recommend as good defence against dog attack.
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    Luke Mannion

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by Luke Mannion on Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:09 pm

    I've seen a lot written about dog defence and most is blatantly just theory. I'd be amazed if any of these guys have actually put on the padded suit and let a dog attack them to see the intensity. A lot would centre around if the dog was trained or not as to where the dog will attack.

    First choice would obviously be to get away from it, not outrun but get higher than the dog can bite. Second choice would be to use something to shield yourself from its attack and/or beat it off using a weapon. I'd steer away from any type of gouging as it'd be easy to loose a finger, that being said we do use a c grip on the throat when dragging a dog of someone else, but wouldn't fancy trying it from the front. A lot of very motivated dogs will still hang on the bite when being choked off to the point of almost passing out.

    If unarmed Id hit it with a closed fist around the nose or try to kick it but to be honest you'd be a mess either way. Certainly not a situation Id fancy being it. I would do everything in my power not to be dragged to the floor though, a big dog hits very hard when it goes for the bite so you may find yourself on the deck if running away.

    Got to remember though that dogs are used because they are generally quicker then us and cause far more damage and are fiercely loyal to their owners( even if they are the dregs of society)

    Be interested to hear Daves ideas
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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by Peter Skillen on Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:04 pm

    Thanks luke..This is something i am definitely going to look into further
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    Les Turpin

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by Les Turpin on Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:46 pm

    my two staffs attacked a goat once, it took all my strength and multiple kicks to the head to get them off. i ended up re homing them apart. the damage they caused was horrific

    i too would be interested Dave in your article

    geordiedave

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by geordiedave on Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:55 pm

    Thanks Dave and Luke for clearing up a lot of myths about Dog Defence.There does not seem to be a lot you can do against a 'big dog' apart from killing it. Though you have got me wondering Dave on your tactics that you teach, would you care to elaborate further ?

    Dave Turton

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by Dave Turton on Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:11 am

    I will start off by giving some very general bits of advice.. the first is to study the TYPE of dog.. they attack/bite in slightly different ways.. each 'breed' has certain traits.

    although the advice from Luke is fine.. but most people dont get attacked by the attack/guard dog types which as he says are trained to go for arms...
    basically untrained dogs will bite the bits nearest to them

    however think of human beings

    the following is just illustrative but 99% true and factual

    1. Pass a fenced area with a scruffy 'alsation' type dog inside (scrap yard mongrels) . the dog barks quite high at the front of its throat.. this is a warning for you to back off.... if you do the dog is satisfied, and filming has shown that often the dog wags its tail when you retreat.. its don eits job and is happy.. kind of "LOOK I'M HERE ... BACK OFF"

    2. A dog 10 yards away and not 'charging/running' at you will growl or snarl (back of throat), raise is hackles and lower its head slightly.. This a strong wrning of impending attack.... Barking dogs dont bite..its growling and snarling ones that do. (same in most humans)
    Here you need to try (again like in humans) some form of 'power talking'
    After all its no good saying to a dog "get away from me go home" or whatever.. it wont understand a bloody word and will recognise the nervousness in your voice.
    Use a command it will have heard before in a strong voice .. "SIT .. STAY" .. using your hand to make the sit gesture..

    It MIGHT work ... but at least thedog will recognise some authority in your voice even if it doesnt stop.

    3. Play the bull fighter.. most people use the "screw up the body flinch" response against an attacking dog... MOVE as much as you can so it struggles to get a 'bite purchase' on you.

    as I said at the start .. watch the BREED ... some clamp, others 'rag' others 'chew' .. Long nosed dog bite differently that short ones.. staffy are different to alsations and so on.

    if you want later I will go into some actual 'defence' that have worked over the years but I am loath to become once again a target for animal lovers who dont like reading about nasty things you are going to do to their pets....

    final advice for this bit .. most adults CAN win in a fight with a dog.. but you wont come away unscathed at all
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    Luke Mannion

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by Luke Mannion on Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:57 pm

    Hi Dave, unfortunately more and more toe rags are using their dogs as weapons, I wish I could remember the name but I saw an excellent programme a while back about youths in London using their dogs for protection and intimidation, they trained their dogs to attack using similar training methods to the police. I assume this is the sort of thing Geordiedave was asking about.

    Not all guard dogs or service dogs are trained to bite the arm as this takes significantly more time and subsequently money to train, then a dog that will bite anywhere. This is mainly used if the dog and handler are likely to come across armed suspects, hence biting the right forearm to bring the assailant down safely.

    I once heard of someone who only trained their dog in German, so when he was biting someone and they were shouting stop or leave, the dog wouldnt react to that word of command. Again though this all comes down to the level of training the dog has received, but if the documentary I saw was anywhere near accurate, more and more dogs are being used as weapons then pets.

    geordiedave

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by geordiedave on Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:43 pm

    Yes Luke you are right, my original question was about youths using dogs for protection and to intimidate but also as a weapon as like "if you don't give me your fuckin mobile and money I'll set the fuckin dog on you". So it's really more about defence against this type of situation,and its not as though you can run away. Dave can you go into some detail on actual 'dog defence' you mention that has worked over the years.
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    Michael W Wright

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by Michael W Wright on Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:15 am

    Luke Mannion wrote:unfortunately more and more toe rags are using their dogs as weapons, I wish I could remember the name but I saw an excellent programme a while back about youths in London using their dogs for protection and intimidation, they trained their dogs to attack using similar training methods to the police.

    Spot on Luke. I taught officers from the SO19 Entry Teams, and they told me how dogs such as German Shepards were being widely used and highly trained predominently by drug dealers to defend against raids. They weren't just random guard dogs, they had been selected and trained in how to defend a property and attack an intruder.

    The SO19 Team's response is two rounds from a Glock 9mm, which in their position defending their lives is a necessary evil. I'm one of the biggest animal lovers (so the ladies tell me) you can find, and it infuriates me that drug dealers and other fcking scum cowards sentence beautiful, loyal creatures to death in order to stall their arrest.

    Such is life.
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    Griffin

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by Griffin on Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:27 pm

    It is indeed fact that various ner'do wells are using dogs as a weapon, thus avoiding the issues of being caught with an 'offensive weapon' on them... A pretty sad attitude to have I must admit...

    As for 'pulling front legs apart' etc, it's, as said 'pie in the sky!' Have you seen how fast a dog hits a target? Not a hope I would say of catching its leg..

    We too, like the early mention of SO19, were taught to shoot the animal, failing it, you lead with your off arm, basicly allowing it to bite on your forearm, and then used your bayonet on it... Leaving you with one f#cked arm.. Very, very last resort!

    geordiedave

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by geordiedave on Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:49 pm

    It seems that the 'recommended' methods for dealing with big aggressive dog being used as a weapon against you is to use a 'Stun gun' on it, which as I understand, will just stop it in its tracks. The other method is to use a 'pepper spray' and aim for its nose. I don't want to get into the 'legality' side of posessing such stun guns,pepper sprays, apart from shooting it as mentioned in earlier posts, there isn't anything else that you can do.

    Dave Turton

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by Dave Turton on Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:05 am

    The problem with ANY weapon is having it when you need it..
    I agree about pepper sprays etc, but rummaging in your pocket/bag etc when a snarling slavering 'Hound of the Baskervilles' is gnawing at your nuts isnt an easy task.

    The MOST important actual physical thing is NOT to turn away when its nearly on you or actually on you.. you know the "bend the knee twist and lift your arms" defence

    A dog basically is a ONE TRICK ... ONE WEAPON animal.. unlike fighting a man with two arms. two legs and one head, a dog has but one weapon.. nasty dangerous to be sure..

    Stay facing it and attack the dog rather than it attacking you
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    shizuilong

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    Re: Dogs don't know kung fu !

    Post by shizuilong on Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:30 pm

    It seems that the 'recommended' methods for dealing with big aggressive dog being used as a weapon against you is to use a 'Stun gun' on it, which as I understand, will just stop it in its tracks. The other method is to use a 'pepper spray' and aim for its nose.

    i've seen numerous training videos of aggressive dogs being Tasered and although it works which the electricity is flowing, the copper wires used are extremely thin and as soon as the charge stops, or one of the wires is broken, that dog is going to be incredibly pissed at you....or as happened in the footage i saw, it'll run off somewhere else - possibly to hurt someone smaller with no ability to defend themself like a child.

    As for the pepper spray - i've used it on a dangerous dog, the dog came bounding towards us out of some trees howling like a banshee, squirted a face full of pepper spray (PAVA), it whimpered slightly, calmed it down before it walked up to me and licked the can. Dogs are also immune to CS spray.

    As for police firearms entry teams shooting dogs - a number of police forces have introduced ballistic and riot shields which have a charged metal plate on the front which are used to box the dog into a room.

    All i know is that Staffordshire terriors are flipping terrifying when they are in fight mode. I've seen a colleague mauled by one whilst 6 other officers kicked and batoned it to no effect, the dog was totally clamped down on her leg.

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