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    What's the best cross-training?

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    Steve Tomkins

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    What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Steve Tomkins on Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:24 am

    Hi Al

    In your opinion, what is the best general support system for RBSD - especially for someone with limited time to train. Not including general fitness training or RBSD training.

    Greco-Roman wrestling or MMA was suggested.

    What say you?

    Cheers

    steve
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    D.Hughes
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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by D.Hughes on Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:28 pm

    id say JKD to be honest. bit of everything in there, and most of it aimed for the street (if you find the right class)


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    Al Peasland
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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Al Peasland on Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:53 pm

    Boxing!

    If you have limited time, then your first range of artillery is almost always going to be hands, and no-one teaches you to punch harder than Boxing.

    Everything else is a support system, so all of the grappling arts and kicking arts are a support to this, in my humble opinion.

    I know it's been said before by lots of others, but if your avoidance and awareness has failed you, then you need to be able to hit hard.
    Do that well and you won't need anything else - cos they'll be unconscious

    Plus, boxing will give you lots of other attributes, that - yes, you can get from other arts too, but you get it all in one place - such as
    Strength of character
    Familiarity with being hit
    Fitness
    Endurance
    etc

    So, I would have to say Boxing.

    Open to suggestions though Wink
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    Steve Tomkins

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Steve Tomkins on Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:15 pm

    Hi Al

    Thanks for the advice.

    Cheers

    Steve
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    Stuart Rider

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Stuart Rider on Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:55 pm

    Al

    Out of interest have you done any Panantukan (Filipino Boxing) with Mick or Terry yet? If yes, How do you feel it compares to western boxing?

    Mick, would like to hear your thoughts as well.

    Thanks
    Stuart
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    Al Peasland
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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Al Peasland on Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:45 am

    Hi Stuart,

    Yeah, have done some with Terry and with Mick. Really like it.
    There's obviously alot of similarities with Western Boxing.
    What I like the most about it is the "crashing in", the forward motion and the fact that alot of the techniques seem to be about imposing your will over you oponents.

    Alot of the body movement and mechanics are the same as western boxing.

    I think they compliment each other really well, and definitely has changed my own game a bit.

    But, still a novice with all things JKD, so Mick is probably better suited to answering this one mate Wink
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    Stuart Rider

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Stuart Rider on Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:18 am

    Cheers Alan.
    Look forward to Micks input.

    Stuart
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    Mick Tully
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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Mick Tully on Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:07 am

    hi stuart,
    just a quick one mate
    if there was just one thing i would really train for stand up it would be Panantukan....as terry says its Boxing and then some!
    Throw in the Pananjakman or Sikaran kicking to augment your Muay Thai and you can cover a hell of a lot of bases!

    I just love the stuff and it looks really cool!
    how shallow am i?
    Answering Steve though...for RSBD take a look at some of Bob Spour's SAS fight secret series....cruelly overlooked in my opinion

    that stuff really works!!
    oh and his Muay Thai's quite good too! I love you
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    Stuart Rider

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Stuart Rider on Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:33 am

    Mick Tully wrote:as terry says its Boxing and then some!

    I like that, describes it nicely.

    Thanks for your input Mick.

    Cheers
    Stuart
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    adamuk

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by adamuk on Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:19 pm

    Hey Guys,

    Can you explain about the Panantukan a little more?
    I've heard of it, but only thing I keep hearing about is defanging the snake......elbowing the incoming fist of an opponent.

    I've tried this under pressure of someone puching at me with gloves on and got nailed more times than I found it worthwhile!
    If I missed once or twice and reverted back to firing back my own shots to the head I could regain my composure. But as stated, when I tried to destruct his hand I got nailed.
    Does the concept of destructing the incoming limb only really work if you connect of the first or 2nd incoming strike....switching the preditor prey mentality??

    Stu - bell me tonight if your free buddy!
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    Al Peasland
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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Al Peasland on Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:30 pm

    Hi Adam,

    I'll leave this one to Mick.
    He taught some Panantukan on the Sunday Class last weekend.

    The small amount that I've done seems to fit nicely in with my own Boxing background.

    My simplistic approach is to use it as a means of crashing in to the oponent, keeping forward pressure and using the elbows as incidental attacks rather than actively trying to detroy the opponents fists, etc.

    Some of the wrapping up of oponents arms when in close is really good and that also ties in with my grappling arts - so for me, it's kind of a nice transition range that fits beautifully in between my boxing and grappling.

    Some of it is pretty hurtful too - crashing forwards with elbows to collarbones, shoulders, etc etc

    Anyway, that's my novice explanation, but Mick T, as a few others on here, will be able to explain with much more eloquence
    cheers
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    Stuart Rider

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Stuart Rider on Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:30 pm

    Ad

    The following is taken directly from Terrys Integrated Arts website;

    "The empty hand phase (of kali) includes the sub-sections of Panantukan and Pananjakman that cover use of the upper and lower limbs for striking and off-setting of balance to influence the opponent's position. The translation of weapons based movements to empty hand allows for a unique approach to destroying limbs prior to attacking the major targets so as to facilitate a more humane approach to a combative situation. This phase also includes the practice of 'Hubud', a flowing exercise used to both develop sensitivity and to recreate the combative energy feel of a centre line attack. "

    and the following is from Ollie Batts website

    "Whilst the term 'boxing' is used to describe Panantukan, we should emphasise that it does not relate to the more usual gloved style of 'English', or 'Western' boxing we see today!

    Compared to the weaponry-based Filipino Martial Art fighting methods, the empty-hand should be seen as a back-up system for when the weapon is lost, or disarmed. It must be said, however, that whilst modern-day training methods emphasise 'safety', in former times, this was not so much of a consideration. For example, as well as being left bare, the fist was not infrequently also covered in hemp rope, especially in real fights!

    An important aspect of Panantukan is the principle of 'manipulating' an opponents body into a position where it is more vulnerable to attack. For example, this might include the use of pulling on the arms and shoulders, kicking the legs, using the fingers and thumbs against particularly vulnerable areas, off-balancing an opponent generally and lifting the head to expose the jaw and neck as easier targets.

    Whereas in gloved boxing, exponents of the art may often favour one lead over the other, in Panantukan training, practitioners are expected to regularly switch from left to right foot lead (forward positions). One advantage of this approach is that it instantly allows one to fight against more than one attacker at a time - something that's not an issue in western boxing!

    It is necessary to remember, however, that Panantukan is the empty-hand brother of the weaponry-based Filipino fighting arts. To leave out either of these two inseparable training methods is like half learning to tie one's shoelaces!"

    Hope neither of these gentleman dont mind me nicking the above.

    Cheers
    Stuart

    Ad - Will try and give you a bell tonight.
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    Steve Tomkins

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Steve Tomkins on Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:42 pm

    Hi Guys

    All this has been very useful as I have found an instructor near me that teaches Silat, Kali & JKD all in the same week! We did some panantokan -good stuff.

    Steve Very Happy
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    Stuart Rider

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Stuart Rider on Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:53 pm

    Steve, out of interest who is the instructor/ if you don't mind me asking that is.
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    Steve Tomkins

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Steve Tomkins on Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:11 pm

    Hi Stu

    The instructors name is Paul Finn. The website address is:

    http://www.karasackali.co.uk/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

    He teaches out of Sidcup - you might know him? He's done some of GT's stuff and Vunak etc

    Steve
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    Al Peasland
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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Al Peasland on Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:13 pm

    I know Paul Finn, Mick T knows him better than I.

    A really nice guy and very capable - you've found an excellent class there.

    Very Happy
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    Stuart Rider

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Stuart Rider on Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:26 pm

    I know Paul well. We both started out under Ralph Jones around the same time. As Alan said, you've found a great class there. Paul really knows his stuff and puts himself out to learn more.
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    Mick Tully
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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Mick Tully on Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:27 pm

    Lucky you! Paul is one of the best in this country! Please send my regards to the mighty Finn! X
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    Stuart Rider

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Stuart Rider on Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:37 pm

    I agree with you Mick,Paul is up there with the best. I've actually just started interviewing him via email so i can send it off to the mags and hopefully help increase his profile and get himsome o the recognition he deserves.
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    Steve Tomkins

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Steve Tomkins on Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:21 pm

    Hey I will be training with him tomorrow I will send him regards from you guys

    Steve
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    adamuk

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by adamuk on Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:11 pm

    Chers Stu,

    Thanks for the info..

    Mate I'm in tonight if you want to catch me.
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    Steve Rowe

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Steve Rowe on Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:29 am

    Steve Tomkins wrote:Hi Al

    In your opinion, what is the best general support system for RBSD - especially for someone with limited time to train. Not including general fitness training or RBSD training.

    Greco-Roman wrestling or MMA was suggested.

    What say you?

    Cheers

    steve

    Tai Chi - it'll give you the 'inside' and principles to your art, better rooting, easier mobility, better alignment, good power sourcing and an arsenal of grappling techniques not used by most RBSD ers.
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    Al Peasland
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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Al Peasland on Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:57 am

    Great tip Steve,

    I must admit, it's not something I've ever trained in, and to be honest, was always something I said I'd get into in my retirement.

    Perhaps I need to rethink

    Many thanks

    cheers
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    Steve Rowe

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Steve Rowe on Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:15 am

    I thin it's like any art - you need to find the right instructor, I've got more and more MMA'ers, RBSD'ers security and police coming to me all the time because without those effective movement and power skills - nothings gonna work.

    From October I'll be doing a monthly seminar at Pillage's new dojo in Coventry any of you are welcome to pop in and say hi..

    Here's a small part of a report written by Gavin King (an MMA practitioner now also training in Tai Chi) on the first day of our summer camp in Jizerka:

    Our first training location for the week was an immerse stone building called Sklrna. Sklrna was first built as a glassworks in 1866, but had recently been renovated and converted into a huge gymnasium.

    Sifu Steve Rowe took the first session and formally opened the course. He explained that over the course of the week we would be exploring the universal principles that power all Martial Arts. We would look at the essential qualities that form the foundation of natural body movement and specifically how to train and nurture them. One thing I was quite taken by was the attendance of the course, I was easily accompanied by hundred fellow Martial Artists hailing from Czech, Denmark and the UK. With the aid of a Czech translator everyone managed to not only understand the content but also enthusiastically compiled reams of notes on it. I think one of the most impressive things I noticed about the first session was despite the numbers the level of experience and number of instructors present to assist meant that everyone received hands on tuition and attention. Logistically on a course of this size I found this symbolic of the united spirit of my new training partners.

    Steve started off by presenting what he called the Internal System. This basically is the internal structure that frames all movement within the Martial Arts, or at least should do. Ive heard many fantastic and bold claims about body structure and alignment and virtually every Martial Artist is aware that it is an essential quality to master, but most are extremely vague about how to actually go about achieving it. Over the course of the first session we were presented with a systematic and logical explanation of how to achieve a connected body.

    Quoting the Tai Chi classics Steve explained that we have five bows, four arches and four pumps. When these are in place we are able to move naturally, powerfully and smoothly in every action we perform. He elaborated saying that when the internal structure is in place that we are able to send and receive power from any point in our body, be it from the front, back, left, right, upper and lower. When framed properly we are able to deal with attacks from any angle. I remember first hearing this claim and thinking it seemed a rather bold statement to make. Over the course of the week though not only did we have many opportunities to field test this theory, but we were also systematically shown how to develop the skills needed to achieve these seemingly extraordinary abilities.

    The rest of the morning was spent showing us how to form the arches and bows of the body that make it possible for us to access the pumps to develop the power of the internal Martial Arts. Surprisingly though Steve didnt once mention the word Chi or any other abstract eastern terms, instead using western language and concepts that we were all familiar and comfortable with. We were shown how forming the bows of the arms, legs and spine supports the arches of the groin and armpits. Steve and the other Instructors came round and adjusted our postures allowing us to access the powerful muscles of the quads, back and core. With the bows and arches in place and the muscles engaged we were shown how to use them via the pumps in the feet, back and neck. More important than being shown them were actually able to feel and become aware of the correct alignment to access the internal structure. For what seemed like a gentle non-physical session I was sweating and my arms were absolutely killing me.

    After lunch in the afternoon session Steve continued his presentation on structure and body alignment. He explained that entire system of Tai Chi only has two base body shapes, Yin and Yang. Again, like the Internal System, this is a concept Ive heard mentioned many times in the past, often using very flowery language, but Steve presented a totally practical lesson using concrete simple explanations. Like the morning session we were shown what it actually feels like to have Yin and Yang shapes in the body. With a few tweaks from the wandering Instructors we all had a definite physical point of reference for both the Yin and Yang body structures.

    We then looked how we move between Yin and Yang using the Internal system that wed covered in the morning session. When correctly framed in either a Yin and Yang body shape we started to see how it is possible to direct any force coming into contact with our bodies directly down to the feet. Over the course of the week this ability would prove to be an essential combative skill, for now though the emphasis was simply on learning how to structure the body. To cement the concepts from the days lesson into our heads and give us a vehicle to train the principles Steve showed us a version of the Kata Sanchin that focussed on the switch between Yin and Yang in the body.

    By the end of the day my body was aching and I was feeling quite overwhelmed with the amount of information that had been thrown at us. I was impressed with the systematic and practical manner in which the lesson had been shared, but still felt it was a hell of a lot of stuff to take in on one sitting, but Steve assured us that the days topics would form the basis of the whole weeks teaching.

    He also added an interesting idea that Id not really considered before. Steve said that it is impossible to hold onto a thought, as are transient in nature. He said what we need to do is keep re-introducing the thought over and over again for it to be absorbed. This he explained was the purpose of taking notes. Its a topic Ive discussed with Steve numerous times and have discovered that Im notoriously poor at note taking. It dawned on me that Kata and Form are merely a series of notes that continually re-introduce thoughts back into our minds, and thinking of the entire days insights, of which there were plenty, being contained shorthand in the Sanchin Kata made the whole thing far more digestible. Thinking of Kata as a series of notes gave it far more meaning and purpose than Id ever given it credit for.
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    Stuart Rider

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    Re: What's the best cross-training?

    Post by Stuart Rider on Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:09 pm

    Steve Rowe wrote:I thin it's like any art - you need to find the right instructor.
    [/quote]

    That's the problem though. How many Tai Chi instructors are actually teaching it as a martial art with the combative applications rather than just concentrating on the health aspects.
    I have looked for Tai Chi instructors in my area and all the ones i have found seem to concentrate on the health aspects only.

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