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    Power Generation

    Post by Guest on Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:38 pm

    Hey guys and Emma cheers

    I have been training with a lot of people on and off recently, MA and non MA alike. and one thing that seems to vary a lot, is the topic of power generation in punches, kicks, power slaps, you name it. I know that every instructor worth his salt has been taught a specific way to execute these techniques, and then in time makes it his own to fit what he does and is more comfortable for him.

    I have been researching and testing various methods and combining what works and what does not and personally found what works for me. I know we have John Burke on here who has done a lot of work with Russell Stutely on power generation and pressure points. and Russells way of striking using a waveform is very effective indeed even from incredibly close range. GT has his own way also, as does Peter C. in essence I think we need to train all round, study each persons style try it out take what we can from it and use it to fit ourselves. Someone once told me " there is no right, and no wrong when hitting, as long as you hit the target and hit it F**&^*&G Hard ". which I think sums it up.

    Peter C as most of you guys know has the double hip, Russell takes it one step further with a waveform, which can and does get used while moving also to transfer bodyweight through your striking implement, and make sure the full energy is transferred.

    If you are training someone for the first time or they are new to self defence, what is your approach to getting them to hit hard, apart from making sure they are striking at the correct angles and alingment first to minimise any potential damage to themselves. like i say everyone has their own methods, start basic and work up

    but does anyone have a favourite way of generating the power needed? mine is much like peters and russells as I have combined the two with what I learned from Geoff Also. no hip rotation and hips moving forward to transfer weight INTO the target and not have power being lost from the rear arm or shoulder either.

    Any thoughts, on how we differ if at all?

    Craig
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    AMC Steve

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by AMC Steve on Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:34 pm

    Hi Craig
    I think that when it comes to striking, you should experiment with different methods (as you said) but when you find something that works for you, then generally I would say stick with it.
    What has always worked for me is the importance of correct body mechanics to generate power, repetition, correct form/technique and understanding the ranges of combat eg when an elbow is better than a punch at the current range.
    That's just me though Smile

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Guest on Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:40 pm

    Good Call Steve

    The correct tool at the right time definately serves it purpose and serves well, no point making room to deliver something different when you are in the correct place to another tool to be just as effictive or maybe more so.

    I stick with what I know now mate, have done for a fair while
    although my training partner doesnt always appreciate it lol.

    Cheers for input mate
    Craig
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    dennis_thompson

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by dennis_thompson on Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:48 pm

    What happens if the instructor teaches what works for them but the student finds it isn't working?

    Would the instructor try a different method?

    What if the instructor only knows one way?

    Should the student leave that instructor on the basis power cannot be generated, even though the studen loves everything else about the club?

    Regards,

    Den.
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    D.Hughes
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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by D.Hughes on Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:06 pm

    Dennis, i dont think anyone should hold themselves back knowingly, instructor or student.
    the instructor should have tried, and still be trying different methods, as we all should, just to check them out and form our own opinions if nothing else.

    as for the student leaving, i dont think so. id say it is the students prerogative to find other ways and means outside of class, and add them to what they are learning in class. id also say its the instructors prerogative to point out to students that this is what they should be doing to find what works for them.

    just my opinion, hope it helps Very Happy

    Rick.


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    AMC Steve

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by AMC Steve on Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:42 pm

    I agree with Rick.
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    Al Peasland
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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Al Peasland on Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:27 pm

    As an instructor, I think it's important that we teach the whole art - or as much as you know of it, rather than only what you find works best for you.

    This was something Rick Faye talked about on a seminar I attended recently.

    I think the problem is that alot of instructors get caught up with feeling like they have to look great at everything they demo to their students.
    And for sure, some students want to be impressed by their instructor, but the problem is, as an instructor, you are then likely to only demo the stuff you are good at and not everything from the art - some of which may suit your students better than yourself.

    For me, I try to teach all variations, and techniques that I don't favour as well as ones I do.
    I also like to try to find stuff that I think will suit the body mechanics and mind set of the student I am teaching rather than what simply works for me.

    But perhaps that is for another thread.

    For me, generation of power in a technique is a result of alot of things but one of my main things is relaxation.
    What happens when we get frustrated at not being able to hit a golf ball very far. We tense up, we get angry - and the ball ends up travelling even less.

    relaxation is the key - along with being able to hit the target of course :-)

    There's lots more but don't want to be a thread hog (not sure what that actually is - just made it up - but quite like it), Craig will only end up barring me!!!

    :-)

    Take care all

    AL
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    karma

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by karma on Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:42 pm

    Think Al hit it on the head there.Relaxation and practice to gain confidence and accuracy.

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Guest on Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:50 pm

    Hey Al

    Bar you? never mate.

    good call Al, relaxation is a MAJOR part in power development, in a nut shell it all comes down to relaxtion and body mechanics, kinetic linking is used within western boxing for example where by the floor is your ground base to push off, and the power comes through each joint in turn and exiting via your means of delivery, in this case Fist.

    If you tense up while the punch is in motion the force cannot travel as easily and you lose power due to it being displaced. one fluid movement with total relaxtion and making sure you hit your target of course. affraid

    Thread hog? i dunno some people, that was just a hint for someone to ask this " Hey Al, any chance you can post more about this on another post? " so come on mate, bring on the info please.

    Its something I have been researching for a long time so would be interested to see your thoughts on it mate.

    Craig
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    Dave Stanswood

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Dave Stanswood on Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:24 pm

    This is something i have been keen on as well Craig. Tensing up before impact is a no no we all know that, i have said in the past that if you look at the arm alone and you tense up you engage both bicep and tricep. The bicep is used to pull (2 muscles) and the tri is used to push (3 muscles) if they are both tense then your body is working against it's self. If your teaching someone who cannot deliver power then watching there body movement is a must as there will be leakage of power somewhere in there movement. I have found that by breaking it down with footwork first then body torque, then arm and hip movement, then fist position (open or closed) and finally targeting. Also by having them punch in slo mo against a pad until they make contact then push against them with the pad will highlight if there is any leakage (normaly feet and balance).

    For me personaly i favour the drop step when i punch (which is why i slightly shuffle in with the rear leg when i punch) this also keeps me moving forward so i can follow the opponent. We often punch from a static position and do not work on moving after the punch is thrown. This is ok if you get a k.o if not you will have to make the distance up quickly to continue your assault.
    Because of training in karate and WT i have adopted a slight hip torque with dropping the body weight when i hit. It seems ok at the moment but still needs loads of work.
    A good friend of mine has got me into kettle bells he is alot smaller than me and hits like a brother from another mother. I have not seen the benefits yet but time will tell.
    My biggest problem is my wrist sometimes it just does not like it when i am hitting well but like all things to get good at punching you need to punch lots.
    I am considering paying Glenn from GT masterclass a visit and pulling some info out of him plus i want to see his gym Very Happy

    Anywho just my thought for the mo.

    Dave

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Guest on Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:36 pm

    Hey Dave

    Drop stepping is beneficial, if you get your ground base right and the right body mechanics first, adding the drop step in just increases the power even more. but its like anything, you need a good base to work from. My training partner is 6ft3 and 18 and a half stone, and i cant hit him with more than 20% power as he cant take it. Torque of the body is ok, but remember, if you use the body as a central axis as peter c says, once the body turns into a punch you have 50% power going forward, which if you imagine a pole through the centre of your head and out your backside affraid then by the laws of physics you must have 50% power going out the back on rotation.

    but throwing both hips forward in the same natural motion as if you were walking you increase your power by massive amounts and it takes less effort. remember that walking is just a series of steps where you are off balance and the body catches itself with another step.

    if you are coming in july mate ill be glad to explain it and show it on break and will give you a chance also to collar glenn.

    its a lot easier to explain face to face lol.

    but am sure we can increase your power in about 20 mins tops.

    Very Happy

    Craig
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    Dave Stanswood

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Dave Stanswood on Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:21 pm

    Yep i will be there in july so would be good to catch up my good man. I am ashamed to admit but i have never trained or seen Peter C in the flesh affraid . Your theory on the centre axis mate is interesting as its very close to wing chun/wing tsun mate. Rather than my hip going back (forgive me but i have had to stand up and punch halfway through this. Thats not strange but being in tesco's coffee shop whilst doing it is Laughing ) My left hip/leg goes forward then my right hip /leg catches up and ends up in line with my left facing forwards. This enables me to walk forward and chase my man down if required. I hope that makes sense. I agree with 50% forward and 50% back that is pure physics thats why i did not agree with karate and chambering the other hand when you punch as energy is going back as well.
    Its all good tho bro

    Dave

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Guest on Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:51 pm

    Exactly mate
    Makes the punch more economical, increases power, keeps balance and allows a follow up with either hand if needs be.

    Wink

    this is peters double hip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRqfYwhsQdQ
    and do a search for Russell Stutely on here mate some of this stuff works a treat
    http://www.martialartsyoutube.com/index.php

    Will have some fun in July and will show you then

    Craig
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    Jamie Clubb

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Jamie Clubb on Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:26 pm

    Interesting and popular topic. Every instructor seems to have their own version on how to generate power. I just couldn't buy into how different everyone could be, seeing as only a finite number of methods are effecient in any situation. Therefore I looked for a convergeance of opinion. For me, all the legitimate heavy hitters all follow a similar principle: they drive the force from the ground, put their body in first and then drive the attacking tool through last. This is exactly the same principle behind any throwing or hitting action in sport be it golf, baseball, tennis, shot put etc. The only difference is that your attacking tool cannot be telegraphed in the same way, but that shouldn't be an issue as the main force is being generated by everthing but the attacking tool.

    Everyone I know who I have felt hit hard follows this principle, but they all seem to articulate it in a different way.

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Guest on Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:54 pm

    Hi Jamie

    as instructors and non ma guys alike we all have our own way of teaching articulating how and why we do things. I always use the analogy of a javelin thrower for my students and it works a treat, the last thing to whip into action is the arm and attacking tool. its the same principle as we all know

    just that we all differ in the way we teach it.

    Nice post mate
    Craig
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    Jamie Clubb

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Jamie Clubb on Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:57 pm

    its the same principle as we all know

    just that we all differ in the way we teach it.

    My point exactly. The CCMA approach, as you might be aware, is to get people to find out things for themselves and then refine with different training methods. Therefore I am very careful not to stylize what we teach, just to get a general consensus on principles.

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Guest on Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 pm

    People can be shown the basics,
    and ultimately find their own path, all we do in a way is unlock what is inside them. hence we all differ, IE, you, me, al, mick, etc we may all throw a hard right cross, the same way, but each one of us have a different way of teaching it.

    I always start with a ground base to find out where the student is,
    then change little things bit by bit like a jigsaw. this serves two purposes.

    1/ They are not bombarded with information they have to try and remember.
    2/ the steps are simple to learn and then they find their own way and increase at a phoenomenal rate of learning also.

    All in all, its all good fun

    Craig
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    Dave Stanswood

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Dave Stanswood on Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:57 pm

    I agree Jamie. Concepts and principles are better as people need to feel and find there way.

    Dave

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by R. Pepper on Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:32 pm

    Hey y'all,

    For me, I like to use the good old convulsive "drop step". I find that it propels my whole weight forward, and if the strike is timed correctly - it gets a decent effect.

    I also like the "shoulder whirl". A combination of hips, shoulders and rotational force, (utilizing a small step where possible). Great for angular strikes. Smile

    R.
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    Steve Rowe

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Steve Rowe on Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:32 pm

    The problem with 'drop step' is that a lot of the energy goes to the floor and not out the fist, IMO it's better to use the 'sliding' step ensuring the bodyweight travels forward into the fist. If the body moves first and then the arm follows through it leaves you vulnerable to a 'pre-emptive strike, it can be better to 'drive' the arm in front of the body and only use a plyometric stretch at certain times as long as the fist/slap lines up to your centre at the point of impact. The waist is more powerful that the hips and it's better to leave the hips to be timed with the wrist at the point of impact. The whole body should spiral with the power coming from and timed to the feet.

    IME it's the 'little things' that make a dramatic difference to the pwer and effectiveness of a strike. Just the correct focus, accuracy or timing can make all the difference, IMO people spend too much effort on power and not enough on these.

    As you can tell my history is radically different from most of you Very Happy

    Just my tuppence worth.
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    Steve Rowe

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Steve Rowe on Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:45 pm


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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Guest on Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:49 pm

    Hey Steve

    Have you done any training or trained with Russell Stutely at all on power generation ?

    Craig
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    Steve Rowe

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Steve Rowe on Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:53 pm

    Yeah, I met Russell in Cyprus, he moved to the UK to train with me but it didn't last long, Tai Chi is a different kettle of fish. I also took him on one of my Summer Courses in the Czech Republic.

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Guest on Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:04 pm

    Hi Steve

    I have only recently been introduced to russells ocfm methods.
    very informative, and studying pressure points also at the moment, but just as a bonus really.

    his power generation methods are very good, I have not trained with him yet but looking to train with pete holmes soon on the techniques.

    Very interesting stuff, especially the pressure points and how they work
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    Steve Rowe

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    Re: Power Generation

    Post by Steve Rowe on Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:20 pm

    I understand that Pete is a great guy.

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