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    Striking at a attackers knee

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    geordiedave

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    Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by geordiedave on Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:50 pm

    I was wondering what thoughts some posters may have on striking at a attackers knee as a form of pre-emptive strike. I argue that it's best to be pre-emptive with a punch and go for a KO, while a mate of mine is adamant that a foot strike to the knee is the best way to take some one out.
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    D.Hughes
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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by D.Hughes on Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:55 pm

    9 times out of ten it wont apply anyway, because you will be at punching range, so that choice will be eliminated.
    personally, i would only ever attack the knee if the aggressor moved forward after aggressive fence or a situation like that.
    i would still say KO is the best way to go though to be honest.


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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by Peter Skillen on Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:15 pm

    I will be covering thisa at the feb seminar defensive kicking.
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    Al Peasland
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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by Al Peasland on Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:25 pm

    In which case I will leave it to Peter to cover this - but I'll add my own experiences if I may.

    I will admit, I've never taken anyone out completely with a knee kick. However, I wouldn't rule it out as an effective pre-emptive strike on that basis.
    I used it once on a guy who fronted me with a knuckle duster. I booted him in the knee and it made him back off a little, but more importantly it killed him psychologically cos he was shocked I would still attack him when he had, what he thought, was his fight ending, man scaring duster.
    And I would say that my kick didn't end the fight on this occasion mainly because it was half hearted on my part - so I cannot say with any authority if knee kicks work or not simply because I either haven't used them as a first line attack, or when I have it wasn't with the right intent.

    All that said, never expect pain to end a fight, no matter how much of it you can dish out. You're going to have to chop the guys leg in half with your kick if you want to make your kick effective. I can point you in the direction of many many martial artists who are more than capable of delivering knee kicks that can do that - so based on that - I guess they would work.

    I also know of one man who was shot in both legs, one leg through his knee, and still dragged himself from underneath a car where he was trying to escape to, and run 200 yards before collapsing in someones front garden. He couldn't walk for months after, but during the event, he was able to run faster that a burning man towards a stream - so as I said. Don't expect pain to end it, you've got to deliver something that will take them out of the game regardless of how much adrenalin they have.

    Leg kicks have their place - but as Rick suggested, if you can kick the guys knee, you can smack him in the jaw, so I'd always prefer that - should the situation require it

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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by Peter Skillen on Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:06 am

    Ok heres the simple explanation. DONT DO IT! Nine times out of ten you'll miss and when you do you'll become vunarable in many ways.

    geordiedave

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by geordiedave on Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:31 pm

    Cheers guys good points made. I look forward to Peter covering this in a bit more depth at the feb seminar.
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    keith

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by keith on Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:15 pm

    I must at my part on this

    There used to be a martial arts instructor who came into my local. I was in the army at the time and we got chatting about self defence as all I had done at that time was control and restraint training.
    I asked him what he thought the best thing would be to do wile being attacked and he said kick them in the knee as hard as you can.

    some months later I tried this when I got into a confrontaion and the bloke just came at me like a bull in a china shop, and we ended up on the floor with him on top of me, lucky for me i managed to ram my thum into his eye socket, roll him off and bail out. I won't ever try that one again
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    bobspour

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by bobspour on Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:36 pm

    I would tend to agree with you Kieth...If I have reached the point where I need to get someone out of the game a head shot is my priority..ALWAYS!

    Train for that and you won't put yourself in harms way.
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    Steve Rowe

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by Steve Rowe on Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:06 pm

    Whilst you probably wouldn't just attack the knee 'cold', there is also the element of opportunity, if you 'screw' the knee inwards or outwards with a thai roundhouse, or side or back stamping kick depending on angle, distance, whether he's covering his head or it's just not too easy to get to, the knee can be an excellent opportunity. If he's not able to connect his body internally, or put power into them, the legs can be very weak I've used it effectively - and it means they have more difficulty chasing you!

    Sometimes it's better to 'affect' the knee by kicking or stamping into the shin or kicking the thigh, often the most damaged is caused when the knee hits the floor and or becomes dislocated. Tai Chi kicking is particularly effective at this and is normally done whilst you are manipulating the upper body at the same time.
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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by Peter Skillen on Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:50 pm

    Defensively a side stamp/kick could be an option but a very very risky one but attacking the knee just isnt worth the risk. If the attacker is running towards and the only option is to kick IE: you may be carrying your kid therefore you have no other option, unless you dont like this particlar kid then you could always throw the kid at your attacker,But i generally tend to think kids are ok and shouldnt be used as self defence tools.
    So forced option kicking in a defensive manner the kick would be better delivered to a larger area such as the chest lower abdomen but even then your risking being felled my oppossing forces meeting.
    My opinion is it is best to try and keep an strong base when fighting IE: feet on the ground but if forced to kick go for the large areas of the torso where your more likey to hit.
    This said though i have on more than one occasion floored my attacker in the street with a turning kick to the head, spinning kick to the head and spinning back kick to the body.
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    Steve Rowe

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by Steve Rowe on Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:22 am

    I'd say attack the whole body where you sense the weakness, whilst striking at the face his defensive movements often mean that his legs become weak, so whilst moving in I would be attacking them at his vulnerable angles, using my knees into both the inside and outside of his thighs and treading on his shins at angles designed to 'screw' the knee, if the opportunity and distance was there I'd be kicking using my shins at the same angles, it's pretty difficult to miss in this way! I'd also be using my hips into his body to uproot and my elbow shoulder and head, if possible all at the same time or in rapid succession. In 40 years I've never had anyone fall forwards on me (nor have any of my students AFAIK), usually backwards, turned or collapsed downwards.

    Maybe it's a matter of style?
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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by Peter Skillen on Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:26 am

    Trouble is people dont just stand there in the street and let you attack them most of the time they are flailing and hitting back and unless you get a grip on the person its very hard to knee them. Try and get the fight over with as soon as possible with a fu*king good punch! YOU DONT WANT TO BE GRAPPLING ON CONCRETE!
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    keith

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by keith on Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:40 am

    what steve was saying I remember training with a guy who showed me that same technique, It originates from what fairbarne and applegate taught to British and Us troops in world war 2. one of the other things was after applying a knee strike, scrape down the shin bone driving your foot into the base of there foot. I think the original program was called GET TOUGH or something like that.

    obviously adapted a lot since then
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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by Peter Skillen on Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:30 am

    Why not just kick them in the shins straight away.

    Lets not digress to much as the question was about kicking the knee ,it leaves you vunarable if you dont pull it off.

    The trouble with knee range is you are now in that fatal grabbing, wrestling & grappling stage which in the street enviroment should be avoided at all costs if possible.
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    Steve Rowe

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by Steve Rowe on Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:05 pm

    A good hard punch/slap to the face that connects is a good pre emptive finisher, but bear in mind that is also what you are expected to do. If the opponent is a lot taller than you or if he leans backwards (a natural movement) or if he can take a good whack and is still fighting or as often happens, in law enforcement/peace keeping/security work the fight starts at grappling range you need a damn sight more. This where your real training and background work is needed. Many of my students are bodyguards, LEO's, doormen and security personnel and from my own direct experience most of their work is at grappling range. As street SD, unless you are going 'one on one' in car park (which would be stupid) your defence is still likely to be at talking/grappling range. With training you can still supply a 'finishing strike' at this range and if skillful are unlikely to be taken to the floor.

    But you have to train for all eventualities. Kicking directly to the knee may be difficult but 'screwing' the knee by hitting the thigh and shins (or knee itself) will turn the opponent away from you and most importantly de-structure him to make your finishing blow far more effective..
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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by Peter Skillen on Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:33 pm

    whilst i agree with you on your point of training for all eventualities.The answer you give is not about striking the knee its about NOT striking the knee and striking the thigh or shin Which is the answer to a different question. That question would be something like this.
    Where on the legs should i strike if not the knee?
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    Steve Rowe

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by Steve Rowe on Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:52 pm

    The point was that they are still knee attacks and I wouldn't exclude direct attacks to the joint, the manipulation of the knee controls the body and is a damn fine target! bounce
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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by Peter Skillen on Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:39 pm

    The knee, from my expearience would not be my first choice of tagret in a street fight/defence situation.
    So there you have it geordiedave you now have lots of options to go and pressure test. Never take anybodys word as gospel go and try it and see what works best for you. Very good question. Thanks mate.
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    Alun Williams

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by Alun Williams on Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:02 am

    A kick to the knee is difficult to pull off in a fight as the opponent is usually constantly moving (my experience anyway!), however if achieved it is an excellent technique, even if it just distrupts the opponent while you assess whats available to attack etc and so its well worth practicing.

    I know someone who kicked a guys knee-cap out with a sweeping kick across the knee, the guy walked with a permanent limp the rest of his life - so results can be achieved. practice makes perfect!
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    Davey

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by Davey on Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:38 am

    agreed with alot of the above, in the heat of the moment a knee strike would be the last thing on my mind, I would go for a knock-out strike, and then maybe a knee strike kinda hoping that knee strike brought them closer to me so i'm in elbow and grappling range.

    As a first pre-emptive strike a knee would definately be out the question for me.



    Davey


    Last edited by Davey on Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

    cobra kai

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    Re: Striking at a attackers knee

    Post by cobra kai on Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:35 pm

    i agree with what has been saying but if your lying on your back then a kick to the knee is going to be your main weapon.

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