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    adamuk

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    Blade work

    Post by adamuk on Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:35 pm

    Is it possible to learn just the OFFENSIVE portion of Kali knife work?
    I use the word offensive because I don't believe any knife work can be defensive.

    I understand in the UK it's rare to have a blade on us for self defence, but rather than learning an entire system of kali I was interested to know if the knife work can just be taught.

    What styles of Kali have board members trained in?

    Kelly McCann aka Jim Grover was on the cover of Blackbelt 2 months ago and he mentioned how he like Fillipino Martial Arts. Also he mentions them on his dvds. How was Combatives knife work influenced by the FMA?
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    paul scothern

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    Re: Blade work

    Post by paul scothern on Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:48 pm

    Hi Adam,

    the offensive combative knifework i've been taught is boiled down fma broadly speaking, only 5 angles of attack as opposed to many more usually in fma, flow over the contours of the opponents body don't hack, usual switches / timers etc, some basic limb disabling.

    there is also the s'narc 'staple gun' approach along with his timing principle for how/when to access at close quarters, i think you've seen his stuff.

    i too am looking for some fma to go a bit deeper with it, chuff all clubs around though.

    cheers

    paul
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    karma

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    Re: Blade work

    Post by karma on Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:49 pm

    You could check out Sayoc Kali their motto is "all blade all the time".Think Krishna Godhania ia a uk representative
    Good Luck
    Karl
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    D.Hughes
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    Re: Blade work

    Post by D.Hughes on Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:27 pm

    i could be wrong, but the impression i got from kali (notice i havent actually trained in any yet) is that attack IS a defence. so by learning to defend, you are also learning to attack, similar in philosophy to JKD.

    can someone who has trained in it confirm whether thats about right?


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    Re: Blade work

    Post by Guest on Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:35 pm

    Where is mr Tully when we need him.
    I am sure mick will shed some light on this when he comes across it.

    will be interesting to find out. before i study it Wink

    Craig
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    karma

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    Re: Blade work

    Post by karma on Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:53 pm

    Studied a little but i'm no expert.Most FMA employ the concept of "defanging the snake" . An example would be in a Knife on Knife senario ( which to my mind is a scary thought pale pirat )When a slash or thrust was made at you. You would try to cut the arm /hand holding the weapon.Hopefully disarming the attacker then you go to work.This concept is carried across into all the other ranges with or without weapons.
    Having said that Mick Tully will probably have loads more info on the subject .So thats all folks cheers
    Karl

    Dave Turton

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    Re: Blade work

    Post by Dave Turton on Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:14 pm

    I teach combat knife 'fighting' as well as defences but frankly I only teach about 2 people a year... I often ask WHY people feel the need for offensive knife work..

    but my stuff (as is most of what I do) tends to be a mixture from several sources ... Brtish and European knife work is very interesting indeed
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    paul scothern

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    Re: Blade work

    Post by paul scothern on Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:51 pm

    just booked a series of privates with a bloke off the rapid arnis uk site down in sussex, will let you know how it goes.

    i'm going with a view to improving my fluidity / tactile sensitivity / timing / and blade effectiveness, so thats the angle i'll be coming from

    cheers

    paul
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    jimmyfatwing

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    Re: Blade work

    Post by jimmyfatwing on Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:56 pm

    adamuk wrote:Is it possible to learn just the OFFENSIVE portion of Kali knife work?

    Adam - does it have to be Kali or are you just looking at effective & offensive per se? Just curious.
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    jimmyfatwing

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    Re: Blade work

    Post by jimmyfatwing on Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:58 pm

    Dave Turton wrote:but my stuff (as is most of what I do) tends to be a mixture from several sources ... Brtish and European knife work is very interesting indeed

    I love Western stuff, care to indulge in a separate thread Mr T? No problem if you'd prefer not to, I know it's a topic to be mindful of!
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    Mick Tully
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    Re: Blade work

    Post by Mick Tully on Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:01 pm

    Rick wrote:i could be wrong, but the impression i got from kali (notice i havent actually trained in any yet) is that attack IS a defence. so by learning to defend, you are also learning to attack, similar in philosophy to JKD.

    can someone who has trained in it confirm whether thats about right?

    hi guys,
    sorry to have taken so long getting back to you on this

    my understanding on the subject of offence/defence in kali as taught to me is as follows;
    there are no defensive movements everything should be thrown as an attack
    so when we train knife v knife the first movent is always an attack,we always strive to slash/cut on the 1st movement
    it should be noted that we don't train for knife fighting per se but to understand the way the blade moves so as to familiarise ourselves with the angles of attack
    i honestly believe that we all need some idea of how things could go in this scenario
    we live in dangerous times people and no matter how much training we have in all other areas, a 13 year old chav/moocher is as dangerous if not more so when carrying a tool
    guro inosanto once said that he had seen a study where a maniac with a knife had covered 21 feet and attacked a police officer in the time he had got his side arm out of its holster...and bear in mind a knife does not need reloading!
    i personally really enjoy the weaponry side of kali...but for the way it helps with my body mechanics and really helps my overall game
    If any of you get the chance seek out a good instructor as i truly believe it will enhance all others areas of your game...spatial awareness,timing ,sensitivity and so on.I am biased towards kali in my thoughts towards how real/live it is...as it has worked for me...i also just think it's a cool pastime and decent skill to try and aquire.
    Rick Faye once said to me that kali was a 24/7 art but i think that most of the guys on this forum live this anyway.
    hope this has helped in some small way as there are way more experienced people than me on this forum
    by the way....
    if any of you guys are in the london area Bob Breen is hosting Guro Inosanto this saturday and sunday in hoxton if you get the chance come on down as you can pay on the day
    be prepared to be inspired!!

    stay safe everyone
    mick
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    Juan_Carlos

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    Re: Blade work

    Post by Juan_Carlos on Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:33 pm

    Just my 2 cents here... I agree with the statement about FMA in general, their objective mainly is to "defanging the snake" first before or instead to kill the opponent, and it's a valid concept, but in my modest opinion you need a LOT of time drilling to obtain the mastery... on the other hand, a more combative approach could be better, because a real knife attack is fierce, fast and full commitment... I still do some FMA drills but my focus is more on stop the attack, control the opponent and finishing the encounter as fast as I can...

    BTW: adamuk, I recommend to you to check Amok! people, they're knife oriented and with a very combative training...

    Excuse my bad english... take care to all
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    Mick Tully
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    Re: Blade work

    Post by Mick Tully on Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:33 am

    hi juan,
    well worth the 2 cents mate !!
    the time required drilling would be inmeasurable to truly feel 100% confident in a bladed encounter
    as i have posted elsewhere on this forum Paul Vunak is quoted as giving himself a 10% chance of success with all his experience in FMA
    thanks for the reply
    mick x
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    Stuart Rider

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    Re: Blade work

    Post by Stuart Rider on Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:48 pm

    adamuk wrote:Is it possible to learn just the OFFENSIVE portion of Kali knife work?
    I use the word offensive because I don't believe any knife work can be defensive.

    I understand in the UK it's rare to have a blade on us for self defence, but rather than learning an entire system of kali I was interested to know if the knife work can just be taught.


    Ad, yes mate, course you could learn just the knife work of Kali and not all the other areas, most FMA systems have so many levels and areas of training that you can focus on certain areas. If we take Inosanto / LaCoste Kali as an example this has 12 areas of training

    The 12 Areas of Kali Training
    From Inosanto/LaCoste Kali

    1st Area
    Single Weapon
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Single Stick
    2) Single Sword
    3) Single Axe
    4) Single Cane

    2nd Area
    Double Weapon
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Double Stick
    2) Double Sword
    3) Double Axe, Etc...

    3rd Area
    Long & Short Weapon
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Stick & Dagger
    2) Long Stick & Short Stick
    3) Sword & Dagger
    4) Sword & Shield
    5) Axe & Shield

    4th Area
    Double Short Weapon
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Double Dagger
    2) Double Short Stick

    5th Area
    Single Short Weapon
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Single Dagger
    2) Single 12" or 15" Stick

    6th Area
    Specialized Short Weapons
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Ilisi Palad (Palm Stick)
    2) Double-End Dagger

    7th Area
    Pangamut (Empty Hands)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Panatukan (Boxing)
    2) Panadiakan (Kicking)
    3) Dumog Layug (Grappling )
    4) Higot-Hikot-Hubad-Lubud
    a) Higot-Hampak ( Soft Tie & Hit )
    b) Hikot-Hampak ( Hard Tie & Hit)
    c) Hubad-Hampak ( Untie & Hit )
    d) Lubud-Hampak ( Blend & Hit )
    5) Ankab-Pagkusi ( Bite & Pinch )

    8th Area
    Long Weapons
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Staff (Sibat)
    2) Oar (Dula)
    3) Spear (Bangkaw)
    4) Spear & Shield (circular)
    Spear & Shield (rectangular)
    5) Spear & Stick
    6) Spear & Sword
    7) Spear & Dagger
    8 ) Heavy Stick (Two-hand method)
    9) Long Stick (Two-hand method)

    9th Area
    Flexible Weapons
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Sarong
    2) Belt
    3) Latigo / Whip
    4) Rope
    5) Chain
    6) Scarf
    7) Head Band
    8 ) Panyo (Handkerchief)
    9) Olisi Toyok
    10) Tabak Toyok (nunchuck)
    11) Tabak Kubid
    12) Yo-Yo

    10th Area
    Throwing Weapons
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Spear
    2) Dagger
    3) Wooden Splinter
    4) Spikes
    5) Coins / Washers
    6) Handkerchief (Panyo)
    7) Stone / Rock
    8 ) Sand / Mud / Dirt
    9) Pepper / Dust
    10) Any Object

    11th Area
    Projectile Weapons
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Bow and Arrow
    2) Blow Gun
    3) Sling Shot (Pana Palad)
    4) Portable Cannon (Lantanka)

    12th Area
    Additional Training
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Healing Arts
    2) Spiritual Arts
    3) Mental Arts
    4) History & Traditions

    So who's to say you can't train just knife and obviously if your time is limited then you need to focus on your priorities but stick work etc has its benefits as well. As Mick stated, development of body mechanics just being one of them. There is more to stick work than just whacking sticks with each other. It's good fun as well Very Happy
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    bobspour

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    Re: Blade work

    Post by bobspour on Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:26 am

    In my experience using blades comes down to one thing.

    Intention.

    I don't care how many systems you train in (and I have trained in many knife fighting systems). If you cannot bring yourself to the point where you go out and go out to kill...and this means killing another human being...then it's simply just that...a system. A lot of fun maybe, possibly improving your reflexes and Knowledge of the system you are practicing and little else...and there is nothing wrong with that...but remember, remember and get it into your head, a Knife fight ends in death for one or both of the assailants. FACT.

    Train with someone who has just come out of a high security prison where edged weapon violence is endemic and you will then learn that a great knife fighter is a survivor, a man prepared to kill and someone who has only practiced one or two types of attacks that worked for him.

    Anyway, if i wanted to stab someone, I would simply walk up to them and do just that... stab them multiple times in the left hand side of the thorax!

    Job Done.

    Keep it Simple Stupid! ( and that's another tagline!)

    That's that lot off my chest!!

    P.S. I know the thread was about Kali but I couldn't resist it!
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    Al Peasland
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    Re: Blade work

    Post by Al Peasland on Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:45 am

    Here here Bob.

    Cool
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    karma

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    Re: Blade work

    Post by karma on Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:56 am

    Not sure of his name but one of the phillipino instructors said you have a 1 in 3 chance of surviving a knife fight

    1--- you are better he dies
    2--- he is better you die
    3--your both equal you both die
    true or not I don't fancy it much . affraid
    Watching prisoners stabbing each other( on tv) is nearly always ambush so maybe it's more awareness and a sense of do unto others.
    Like Bob said survival
    Karl
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    kaarl

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    Re: Blade work

    Post by kaarl on Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:23 pm

    bob is spot on,

    I could train for years to be deadly with a knife, but the average scrot could take a knife out of his kichen with no training at all and be just as deadly

    karl
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    Stuart Rider

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    Re: Blade work

    Post by Stuart Rider on Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:14 pm

    Could not agree more, only need to look at the news to see this happening on what seems a daily basis at the moment.
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    Mick Tully
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    Re: Blade work

    Post by Mick Tully on Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:04 pm

    common sense as always bob....ever thought about writing?
    perhaps a monthly column?
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    adamuk

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    Re: Blade work

    Post by adamuk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:19 pm

    Don't you just hate it when your long replies go awol!!!

    Bob, I agree 110%

    Stu, thanks for the break down.

    Jimmy, Western arts, kali, etc all good IMO mate. But to keep it clearer I think a new thread would make easier reading.

    I had read that some Kali systems techniques don't transfer to well from stick to blade, even though they are taught like they do!.....I think it stated that the angle of the blade edge would be different to the large impact area of a stick.
    If anyone can shed some more light on this I'd be grateful.

    cheers,


    Adam

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