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    Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

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    Marc1978

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    Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Marc1978 on Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:57 pm

    According to Mark Miller AKA 'A Human Weapon' they are,and further more we will be prosecuted!!,

    http://WWW.youtube.com/watch?v=7omQtLPCGcE&feature=playlist&p=03B7B87861D94E96&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=46

    Marc Laughing
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    Les Turpin

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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Les Turpin on Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:50 pm

    if i think that it will take a pre-emptive strike to stop an oncoming attack i will do it, dont really care about being prosecuted. better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6. extreme maybe but....sorry



    looked at his other vids and he's NOT my type of guy but hey, each to there own.
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    Mick Tully
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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Mick Tully on Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:14 am

    Its my understanding if you percieve a threat you can use reasonable force
    Which includes a pre-emptive strike,but when you become the agressor then its a very grey area imho......avoidance is what I would advise wherever possible....I know to some that's a bit touchy feely......but I've found that when you TRULY know you can handle most situations when it turns physical.....it affords you this option.....it makes me smile when this attitude causes so much consternation in some circles........then again.....I've seen what constitutes training/conflict strategy or whatever.......be switched on and you will avoid 90% .......the other portion can also be avoided with a still tongue......but then again as les said........the better to be judged line is how I live my life.......rather not see the courtroom though...hahha......keep on training guys!
    Mick x
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    keith

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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by keith on Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:03 am

    If somebody is being verbally abusive, trying to get in your face and making threats on your life and there clearly showing signs of aggression and they keep trying to move into your personnel space, then I'm pretty dam shore your well with in your rights to knock there head off there shoulders. as long your only do what is necessary to get out of danger. what is this bloke on??
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    Al Peasland
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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Al Peasland on Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:32 am

    Have watched a few of Mark Miller youtube clips

    This one I simply don't agree with - although the clip is very short so doesn't give him chance to explain his rationale or justification behind his statement.

    As far as I'm concerned though, I think he has this wrong

    A pre-emptive strike IS legal providing you fet at the time that you were under threat and without taking this action you genuinely believe you would have been attacked yourself.

    I'm no legal expert - as you can probably tell Laughing but I believe it's even legal if you feel a pre-emptive strike it the only way to prevent someone else from being attacked.

    The difficulty is being able to justify your actions to the Police and possibly the courts afterwards!

    Avoidance is always a better option Wink

    Marc1978

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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Marc1978 on Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:44 pm

    I think we have all got a much better chance of being prosecuted just by living our daily lives,
    http://WWW.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-455443/toddler-fined-89-dropping-crisps.html Shocked ,
    http://WWW.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/2475581/man-is-fined-50-by-police-in-Ayr-for-dropping-a-10-note.html Laughing and finally
    http://WWW.taxiblog.co.uk/1721/married-couple-fined-for-forest-car-sex/ Embarassed
    than we ever would have if we had to launch a pre-emptive strike in a self-defence situation.

    Marc study
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    drgndrew

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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by drgndrew on Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:56 pm

    of course pre-emtive strikes are legal , what piece of law do you think The coalition of the willing used to invade Iraq.

    it may vary across nations and even county's/shires etc. in general I believe they are all similar in the western world

    In Australia you are legally allowed to preemptively strike a person if you have an HONEST believe that you, or another, is in IMMEDIATE and REAL or ACTUAL danger. The force applied must be what a normal member of the society, of sound mind, would consider REASONABLE given the situation.
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    Griffin

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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Griffin on Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:45 pm

    drgndrew wrote:of course pre-emtive strikes are legal , what piece of law do you think The coalition of the willing used to invade Iraq.

    I'm not sure thats a particually good example... I don't think Bush and co were to bothered with legal niceities.....

    However I have to agree i to believe pre-emptive strikes to be legal...

    An example....

    Some weeks ago I was working on a particulary rough estate and a local low life got right in my face... Swearing threats etc... Whilst telling me how he was going to 'shank me' he put his right hand in his pocket... I immediatly struck his chest with a half spear, while grapping his wrist with my other hand... A completly pre emptive strike, which the police made no comment on ( other than "Nice one mate") when they attended...
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    shizuilong

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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by shizuilong on Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:29 pm

    Al Peasland wrote:Have watched a few of Mark Miller youtube clips

    This one I simply don't agree with - although the clip is very short so doesn't give him chance to explain his rationale or justification behind his statement.

    As far as I'm concerned though, I think he has this wrong

    A pre-emptive strike IS legal providing you fet at the time that you were under threat and without taking this action you genuinely believe you would have been attacked yourself.

    I'm no legal expert - as you can probably tell Laughing but I believe it's even legal if you feel a pre-emptive strike it the only way to prevent someone else from being attacked.

    The difficulty is being able to justify your actions to the Police and possibly the courts afterwards!

    Avoidance is always a better option Wink

    You're absolutely right Al, pre-emptive strikes are wholly legal -IF and it's a fairly big IF, you can justify the strike having had an 'honestly held belief' at the time of the incident that you were 'then and there' going to be subjected to an assault and that you used 'reasonable' (although some human rights lawyers now state it should be 'minimum') force. As for the definition of reasonable force thats a whole different can of worms.

    Unfortunately if there are no impartial witnesses/CCTV to this, chances are you will get nicked if the police show up. The good news is you'll be able to fully justify your actions in interview and hopefully the matter would be dropped.

    Any good self-protection/martial arts instructor should have a basic grasp of these legal issues to pass on to students so they use their abilities responsibly - as I'm sure you all do!!

    shizuilong
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    Joe Hubbard

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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Joe Hubbard on Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:31 pm

    Good points made all round. An important aspect is training yourself to know how to deal with the police when they turn up. This is not meant as a deceptive measure, but when such an incident occurs and police then show up after an incident has taken place it is very easy for your own emotions of anger to surface. The indignation of being threatened to where you were forced into striking first out of pure self preservation can often cause anger to come out when an authority figure is there to stop the violence that is happening. Sadly, this is often misinterpreted by the police, which in some cases can lead to false arrests.

    A few pointers are accepting the fact that the toe rag who attacked you is a toe rag and that is what he does (it wasnt personal) and sticking to the facts in a dispassionate way when the police hit the scene and start questioning you.

    Peace

    Joe
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    Al Peasland
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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Al Peasland on Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:51 am

    A very good friend of mine gave me these wise words when I first started working the doors.

    He said
    "Al..... the first words you must say to a Police Officer, the moment they arrive, regardless of what's happened or what you're doing are.......

    Thank Goodness You're Here"

    Laughing

    Marc1978

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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Marc1978 on Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:32 pm

    Wise WORDS indeed!!

    Marc Wink
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    shizuilong

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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by shizuilong on Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:00 pm

    haha! classic.....I've heard that many a time and it's always a saving grace!
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    Jamie Clubb

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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Jamie Clubb on Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:12 pm

    So long as you can justify pre-emption to an audience of your peers in a courtroom that you had an "honest held belief" that you were about to be attacked and you had done everything possible to escape, and that you applied force proportionate to the attack then, in theory, you should be okay. Also taken into account is your emotional state at the time etc. There is the old chestnut that peoeple don't get prosecuted on what they did, but what they say they did.

    To date the best book I am aware of that deals with the legalities of pre-emption and the use of "reasonable force" (minimal is a highly debateable area!) is Martin Dawes's "Understanding Reasonable Force" If we consider Gavin De Becker's "The Gift of Fear" to be the soft skills bible on self defence then this one is the gospel of self defence legalities. Dawes is one of the very few "expert witnesses" independently called upon in cases relating to interpersonal violence. I will be writing an online review of it shortly.
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    Al Peasland
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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Al Peasland on Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:51 pm

    Thanks Jamie - haven't read that one - but have just placed my order

    Many thanks

    Al ;-)
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    Jamie Clubb

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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Jamie Clubb on Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:13 pm

    Always happy to be of service! Perhaps I should publish my essential reading list online. I give it out when I teach specialist soft skills/hard skills intensive self defence courses.

    Denn

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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Denn on Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:43 am

    Is it illegal to go up to someone whos giving you mouth and punch him in the face. yes.
    Is it illegal to launch a pre emptive strike when your in fear of being attacked. Thats down to the attending officer and or jury.

    Ive defended myself and seen others defend themselves with pre emptive strikes and not been prosecuted, this was because the self defense was reasonable and appropriate. A blanket statement that you will be prosecuted is wrong as it is situational. Infact your self defense instructor or some random black belt is perhaps the wrong person to be giving out advice. Your best bet is to seek someone who studies the law or who is well versed in it, solicitor, judge etc.
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    Al Peasland
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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Al Peasland on Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:51 pm

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10372678.stm

    believed he was acting in self-defence by striking a pre-emptive blow before a fight which he thought he was going to lose.

    An Old Bailey jury rejected his explanation and convicted him of murder in May.

    Pre-Emptive strikes are legal in the right circumstances, as Denn mentions - but this case was trying to take it a little too far!

    Mr007

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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Mr007 on Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:13 am

    .I've seen what constitutes training/conflict strategy or whatever, be switched on and you will avoid 90%, the other portion can also be avoided with a still tongue, but then again as les said.

    Jasjotbains

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    Re: Are Pre-Emptive Stikes illegal

    Post by Jasjotbains on Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:31 am

    I believe we all have a right to defend ourselves..it just depends on our ability to judge the genuine threats to the not so genuine..and yes i agree with one ov the above posts: Its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

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