Senshido - Shredder - Anyone tried it?

From what I can see it looks like a good concept. The people who do it generally seem to be bright and well educated and managed to hold their own on sites such as Bullshido, which impressed me.

I'm tempted to try a seminar next year if there were any, but need feedback before I committ the wife's money to it

Well I have to be careful here as I got entangled in an almighty row when I last critiqued Senshido .. strangely I was actually praising most of it, just mentioned a couple of points .. my final asessment (personal opinion only) was that I gave it 8 out of 10.. which I thought was fair and not derogatory
but several of Dimitri's supporters seemed to think otherwise .. not Rich himself I must add

I have only seen a couple of seminars when Riichard Dimitri was in the UK

my overall impression is of a pretty good well thought out art, the 'shredding' part I feel is a decent enough extra 'tool' but not anything radically new or revolutionary, but well thought out.

not the best I have seen but better than most

It works extremely well on my bank statements and confidential mail.

Mine to Steve

But there are some Senshido guys on here I believe

Les for one I believe and of course Rich himself is on here somewhere,
Check out facebook in the sendhido group there are videos on there with rich also explaining it,

Nick Engelen has also been and trained with rich a few times I believe so we should have a wealth of knowledge on the subject here. I have used some in training and I must admit it was very effective, and had it done to me also and it was not what I was expecting. Very disorientating, and a horrible experience to go through. but bloody effective.

Come on guys, answers on a post card please

Craig

G'day Matt,

I teach the Shredder (aka REACT) as part of my system along with other Senshido concepts (with Rich's Permission) and I highly recommend it.

I've researched it (the Shredder) from a psychological perspective and it most definitely has proven to be what it claims in that respect.

Rich will be the first to tell you it isn't the be all and end all, nothing is., but I believe as a single concept it does better for the average person in a real life violent situation then anything else.

I remember the kerfuffle when Dave critiqued the Shredder, (I stayed right out of it), it is true that devotees to the shredder defend the concept passionately. it comes from having to defend it against people who only see a few photos or a few second clip and dismiss it with out every experiencing it themselves. I may not have agreed with Dave's points but at least he actually attended a seminar before making them.

Anyway back onto the topic, you really have to experience it yourself, and have it taught to you by someone who actually knows what they're doing. it is far more then just raking and gouging.

If I could only teach one thing to my wife for her protection it would be the Shredder. ( Mind you , Kate can is already a proficient Shredder.).

Also drop over to the Senshido forum and ask there or even send Rich himself a message he is always happy to help out.

I could sing it's praises all day long, but will safe you from that.

i obviously reccomend it.

in my opinion it is one of the best concepts out there. i train various tools that are used within the concept. i am a guy that cannot keep remembering 5 defences against a punch or a kick and different wrist locks and stuff so the concept works for me , it wont for others.

train it and try it and see. i have trained it under pressure used it once at a party 3 weeks ago to restrain and it worked fine......i guess other stuff would have too but like i said it works for me.

Personally i really like The Shredder. i think Drew summed it up nicely, experience it for yourself to understand and realise what a useful addition it is to have in your arsenal.

As with anything though it is best to learn from somebody who understands it properly, both the physical and psychological aspects of it.

There is definetly far more to it than just raking and gouging and the old shredder logo properly did nothing to dispel this myth but i understand from Rich that the logo is being done away with.

Matt, Rich is over next year teaching a few seminars. I believe the dates are
21st / 22nd Feb in Sheffield and the following weekend he is up in Scotland.
If you can make it then i can highly recommend attending.

It's a familiar technique for anyone practicing the Yang Family 'Long Boxing' form.

Steve...

its not a technique.

with respect

heres a link for anybody who would like to read about the shredder concept

http://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=1405

how 'reasonable' can you be with the shredder?
in the context of self defence laws i mean?

you can be as reasonable as you need to be to get the job done, the scenario / situation will dictate what force you deem necessary.

its not all about eyegouging and face rakes. its about applying what is needed in the moment.

could you explain the concept more fully to help us understand?

the link does give an indepth account but heres my take on it.

assuming that you have tried everything to avoid a physical end to the situation.

you will use the techniques you already have learnt and / or are built into your natural response to a threat to your survival. on the quarter beat you will apply your 'techniques' to inflict damage necessary to finish the job. the quarter beat pace will not allow your attacker to think about a defence, basically turning the predator /prey mentallity in your favor. techniques that you use are decided buy the reaction of your attacker.

its not that you want to or go looking for the eye gouge or whatever but more only do it if its open to you.

now, i am pretty crap at describing stuff. but i hoped that helped

Hi Rick

Hope this makes the concept clearer for you, i have taken it from an email i sent to a friend the other day who was asking about the shredder,i have had to delete some bits of the origianl email, but flicking through it still makes sense.
Anyway, here you go:-

"It is a useful tool to have in your arsenal but it is not the only tool you want as it is only good in one range of combat, that being extreme close quarters or grappling whichever term you want to use.

what you need to do is forget about what you have read about it just being eye gouging etc, it is more than that. Initially you need to understand that the shredder is basically the application of five principles, what Richard Dimitri calls the "Five principals of physical realiation" These principals are, in no particular order;

- Primary target acquisition - primary targets being the eyes and the throat
- non telegraphic motion
- tacticle sensitivity
- economy of motion
- Opportunity Striking

With the shredder you are supposed to close the distance between you and the attacker and shut them down.Using one hand as an anchor so they cannot escape and with the other hand attack the eyes and throat. Your aim at the same time is also to get behind your attacker so you have your chest against the attackers back so you are in a position of control (as if you were going to apply a rear naked choke or similiar) and making it as difficult as possible for your attacker to hit you back.

It is not about going toe to toe with somebody but is about using what footwork to gain a position of advantage. As you are using your footwork to get into a position of dominace you could be using short knee strikes for instance to the attackers thighs inorder for them to flinch from the shot and so concentrate their mind on your overall attack and not give them time to try and fight back with anything useful.

Also during all of this you will be looking to basically rag your attacker about so they cannot get a solid base to fight back from. The three things needed to deliver a good strike are grounding, distance and torque. By ragging them about you are looking to take these three principles away from them so they cannot hit you back with any power.This is why you shut them down and off balance them. Once you are in a position of dominace you, have them anchored and one hand in their face you are looking to maintain contact to with their face and or neck and attack the eyes and throat to take away their abilty to see or breath.

Another aspect of the shredder is the quarter beat strike. Basically what this is is hitting your opponent with your hand whilst stil maintaining a degree of contact to with them.So far example, you have your hand in the attackers face and instead of chambering / loading your hand back to strike with, you would leave your fingers attached / touching the face a drop if short rapid palm strikes, again these are not finishing shots but are used as part of the overall attack. These attacks are supposed to provide a sensory overload to the attacker rather than just a one punch knockout.

With the shredder you can use varying degrees of force so it is an ideal tool for police officers etc. In a life or death situation you can go to the max and use eye gouges, throat crushes etc but you can also use less force by rubbing your hands / scratching them across the attackers face to create a sensory overload and possibly giving you an opportunity to escape, make your arrest what ever course of action was needed by the individual."


Hope that makes it clearer mate.
Cheers
Stuart

yer that helps heaps guys, thanks.
sounds like a very sound concept to me. would be good to add to my arsenal.

would be great to meet you at the seminars Rick if you can make one of them.

yer would be great to meet up mate. wont be for a while though, got bobs course in april hopefully. just praying my car's mot aint too expensive

Tried it, loved it, recommend it
Richard Dimitri is one of the best around

Well not that I actually NEED to defend myself regarding my comments about Senshido a year or so back, but I wouldnt have said ANYTHING had I not been asked to on a couple of forums and also by private emails, phone calls etc.
given that on one particular forum, I was on the list of 'ask the experts' thing, and I was there to answer questions, how could I NOT respond.
Given that a large part of the questions started with comments like..
You have attended a seminar or similar, then I was 'duty bound' to answer AS I SAW IT, and from the reports given to me by my own personal students who I had ENCOURAGED to attend on the course.
In fact the SDF paid for TWO of my students to attend as I was incapacitated with severe rheumatoid arthritis and carpal tunnel syndrome at the time, and undergoing lengthy medical teratments

I had SIX personal students on the seminar held in Doncaster, which is in fact the club used as the H/Q for the SDF...

I was there one hour before the seminar started and 30 minutes after it ended.. I have photos taken with Richard on the day (showing the clock behind us at hours apart

I was asked for my PERSONAL assessment as an 'expert' on the forum I could only reply from the basis of what I saw and my students reported to me

I found it pretty good overall and said so at the time

so hope that explains things a bit better

I SLIGHTLY disagree that the shredder part of Senshido is always that effective, there are several positions wherebye you simply cant get to the face .. we have tried them, and also, and this applies to EVERY technique in EVERY art, if your opponent is drunk and rugged, large and massively aggressive, he MAY (note I said may not will) take the face stuff long enough to still do you damage

I do believe that shredding is a valid tool for women in close in situations, but although Mr Dimitri has certainly made a deeper study of it than most, it isnt new.. Kenshiro Abbe (the forerunner of the style I practised for over 20 years .. Goshinkwai) regularly taught 'attacking the face' back in the 50's
I was first taught similar methods in 1970 when I first started Goshinkwai

I dont know why people think I am ANTI Senshido/Shredder I am not.. its better than most which what I have always said

Dave Turton wrote:I don't know why people think I am ANTI Senshido/Shredder I am not.. its better than most which what I have always said

Hey Dave, I don't think anyone here would suggest that dude, certainly not me anyway. The way I saw it, it was your assessment, I might not have agreed with some of the points you made (actually I can't really remember them now, to be honest), but in the end that is what you thought and it is just as valid as anyone else's. ( maybe more so because of your status, this might have been one reason why some took offense, but lets not get in to all that)

there are several positions wherebye you simply cant get to the face ..

This is exactly right, and if the shredder was only concerned with acquiring the face then you simply would not use it in those situations (positions), BUT the Shredder is not limited to the face, you can shred any body part. The face is probably the most effective region to shred, which is why it is most often targeted, this is because it is a central hub to most humans (indeed most animals) survival mechanisms. the area around the face has the portals for breathing, eating & drinking, communicating (nose mouth and throat), seeing, hearing, smelling, we primarily orientate to sudden, threatening or significant stimulus by turning our head to face it (the orientation reflex), the head contains our brain responsible for thought and everything else we do, our balance mechanism is between our ears (behind the face), the arteries feeding blood to our brain is in our neck and so is the bundle of nerves that carry messages through out our body.

It's no wonder that it is a sort after target for shredding. Shredding elicits automatic defensive reflexes designed to protect the organism, with so many vital survival features associated with the face and neck it's logical (evolutionarily) that the organism (human being) has particularly strong defensive reflexive responses associated with that area.

we have tried them, and also, and this applies to EVERY technique in EVERY art, if your opponent is drunk and rugged, large and massively aggressive, he MAY (note I said may not will) take the face stuff long enough to still do you damage.

He may not feel the pain but he WILL react, if he does not react to a facial onslaught of significant stimuli then he is in no state to be able to cause you any serious damage. he is either dead, unconscious or so damn high or drunk that he wouldn't be able to stand anyway.

it isnt new.. Kenshiro Abbe (the forerunner of the style I practised for over 20 years .. Goshinkwai) regularly taught 'attacking the face' back in the 50's
I was first taught similar methods in 1970 when I first started Goshinkwai

That doesn't surprise me Kenshiro Abbe was great thinker and strategist ( so I'm led to believe, I never met him), attacking the face isn't new I'm sure cave men used the face as a target. But attacking the face is not the Shredder, it is simply the most common and I think the most effective target to apply the concept. It's not the techniques but the manner they are applied.

But I focus here to much on our different views when the majority of our views are the same. ( that seems to the theme for most debates in the martial arts )

Edited to Add: after re-reading this I can see how it may come across argumentative, please don't take it that way Dave (Hanshi ) it was meant simply as a discussion.

its just how I see it Drew mate ... a debate

it does show though the limitations of some seninars as opposed to training in an art 'full time', again I only have that one seminar and some written stuff as my criteria, Richard himslef ONLY used the face as his targetting, so that was/is my only criteria for any critique

for example I have been invited on a seminar next Feb to teach the Power Slap and some purring kicks.. now many may go away from that thinking thats all I do because that would be their experience of my SDF stuff

also I have seen (and a couple of my students have been part of), drugged up guys whose 'reaction' to any pain applications was simply to become more violent and attack harder..

have the shredder as a tool and use it when its the best option and leave it alone if or when it ISNT the best option.. which probably sums up most techniques and concepts

Dave Turton wrote:
have the shredder as a tool and use it when its the best option and leave it alone if or when it ISNT the best option.. which probably sums up most techniques and concepts

well said Dave,