BJJ - does it help your street game?

With regard to grappling range what are the thoughts on BJJ in the support system now that it is more readily availbale than say 5- 10 years ago?

I understand Geoff trained in the grappling arts of Freestyle, Greco & Sambo wrestling along with Judo as these were probably what were available to him at the time but now BJJ clubs seems to have spread across the UK, does anyone think replacing judo or wrestling with bjj would be beneficial?

What would be the best combination of grappling arts if time was limited?

I believe it takes 10 years to achieve a blackbelt in BJJ, approx 3 years in judo. How does the extra 7 odd years benefit us in self defence terms?

How long does it take to get qualified in a wrestling system?
Where are these course held?

How much of these grappling arts are left after being whittled down for the RSD?

realistically, at least in my opinion, i only ever learn grappling arts to give me the skills i need to get back up as fast as possible if i ever do get taken down, and to help control any clinch i may get forced into.

i dont believe any one is better than the other per say, its all down to personal preference. which you enjoy more. of course, that preference will also include which instructor you prefer, and other points regardless of method.

with regards to 5-10 years ago, i would say the range of opportunity, availability, and quality (at least in some clubs) have evolved exponentially in all areas.

Hi adam,

as we know grappling of any sort is a support method and a damn good one. but it is just that, support. as rick has rightly said the ground is the very last place you want to be, and if you have ended up there something has gone drastically wrong along the way.

However, I have been asking the same questions with regards to grappling, wrestling etc. and I have been told time and time again, Judo is the way to go. Traditional Judo is as good as they come, and the floor work is excellent and can also be used outside to great effect also, especially the throws. but why just stick to one? why not go for different styles and see what works for you, each has their own opinion but for me Judo is the ground base I would be working on.

how long does it take to get qualified?
as long as you want to practice, 5 days a week 52 weeks a year 2 hour class each time? a lot quicker than once a week for an hour.

you get out what you put in.

Regards
Craig

i thought only Austin Powers did judo?

We all have role models Rick
and im sure Austin powers is yours, but there is more to life than
movies mate lol.

dont be silly Craig

hey guys,
i think as regards the street i would look towards something other than bjj for the ground.
it's an awesome art and the attributes it developes are great but....pulling guard on a saturday night outside the kebab house is imho not the best of ideas!
having said that any game is better than no game!
most of the guys i really respect in the arts lean towards dumog
this is a major bone of contention in the states as the military have adopted gracie jiu jitsu as the grappling part of their SD program....having said that anyone see voo's enigma dvd?
some guys can make anything work!

tell you what though....i wouldn't want to meet victor estima where there are any flat surfaces!!

Hi Mick,

I love your answers mate they always make for good reading.

You are right that any game is better than none. I personally believe that individuals bring something unique to what ever art they do. I know guys that would still be a handful if they had graded as black belts in origami.

Martial art is fundamentally ‘movement’ and an understanding that the human body can take a lot of punishment but no damage. The origins of BJJ had (and still have) some movements that result in some serious damage to the body (the original jujutsu). A lesser known feature of Jujutsu is that the purpose of certain movements was for the protection of others and not oneself (like protecting your boss). This often meant that the ancient warriors of jujutsu had to discreetly restrain possible attackers even before a situation became live without causing any injury to the person being restrained. The early origins of each art will usually give you an idea of why they have developed in a certain way and why in real terms that consciousness is still the underlying principle driving that art today.

If you get the chance read Serge Mol’s book “Classical Fighting Arts of Japan.

You are a good man Mick and I hope to see you soon for a training session

Respect
Tony. T

thanks for the kind words Tony

as i have said before you have an uncanny understanding of kali/movement

and i loook forward to your tutelage
mick x

If you go to the ground with Mick just make sure he doesn't land on top!!

There goes the neighbourhood

bobspour wrote:If you go to the ground with Mick just make sure he doesn't land on top!!

i expect no less from you ajarn!
by the way...i'm big boned...and have a gland problem x

Owwwwww...a harsh call there Mick. Insinuating that you're larger than most. Maybe thats why Al decided to shove me in his DVD and not you...the immovable Mick Tully!!

Excellent points made for the grappling. I've been doing BJJ for 18 months now to try and get a grappling game and it's a great art. Really enjoy it and 1 on 1 it's going to come out strong. But on the dance floor of your local watering hole it would be less than desireable to shoot the legs then go for a triangle choke. Some of Al's wrestling would be a better idea if you end up in a clinch.

That said, some girls prefer you to just buy them a drink and strike up a conversation...

that's the way to do it! x

All my replies seem to be going awol today!!!!!

Thanks for the input guys.

Lets not get into the - "floor is a bad place to be" discussion, I think we all know that. I'm addressing purely the groundwork portion of s.p. to improve my knowledge in this range.

I like the point made that single leg or double leg take downs can be more useful than (not sure anyone would do this anyway) pulling guard on the dance floor. But doesn't BJJ cover take downs like this?

I can see that the upright grappling clinch work of judo could come in handy and I suppose it is also covered more in Greco for no gi technique, with freestyle or bjj possibly not concentrating on this area as much.

The judo clubs I have investigated around my area though seem to not concentrate on Ne waza though! They have very little groundwork being taught. And it is the older exponents in the odd club that seem to have more knowledge of this area.

Does judo ne waza really hold it's own against bjj groundwork? Maybe Matty or others with experience in both systems could give us all an indepth explanation?

I'd also be interested to know if anyone has tested Silat in any form of animal day. I understand all silat is blade orientated and I'd like clarification on the following points.....
1) How does it compare to wrestling, bjj, judo when pressure tested on the street or in Animal Days?
It seems to me, that silat player agree to stay in an agreed grappling range.
2) If silat practioners assume they will be fighting multiple attackers and armed opponents how is their grappling techniques and concepts applied differently to the sport grappling forms?

Looking forward to some good feedback from the JKD guys who may have trained in Serak silat and other silat systems.

cheers,


Adam.

Didn't read the whole thread as I'm about to nip out but just got a few of points on the subject:

- Do you think being able to grapple will make you a better fighter? IMO, of course it does. So, yes, BJJ is worth training whatever arena you are preparing for.

- Will all the techniques of BJJ be applicable to the street? No, but that doesn't mean a style should be written off, especially one that is effective, pressure tested and performance based.

- Unless you are in security why only train something that will the most applicable for the street? BJJ is fun and challenging. And life is short.

- "I believe it takes 10 years to achieve a black belt in BJJ". 99% of people will never get to black belt in BJJ. Most won't even get to brown or purple. It's scary how good grapplers top level BJJ are.

- "Does judo ne waza really hold it's own against bjj groundwork?". No. Obviously there are exceptions, especially in the midlands, but I've rolled with 100s of guys from every grappling art and a lot of judo clubs focus on competition and therefore neglect the groundwork, often to the point that they really have little idea what they are doing. Not a slight on ALL judo players as I've rolled with some who are really awesome, just my experience.

- If you can find a good Submission Wrestling or MMA class that might be what you are looking for. No reliance on the gi, wrestling & Muay Thai clinch, wrestling takedowns, more top position.

Nathan

It’s the mix that makes the difference when you are forced into an altercation on the ground. Is BJJ better than Greco, Scientific Wrestling, Judo, Catch-As-Catch-Can or Silat? The answer is both Yes and No. Everything is situational and positional.

All of these systems answer certain questions relating to how you would encounter the ground on the street. One might point out that BJJ’s propensity of using double knee base is not as good as Scientific Wrestling’s leg out base with toes to the ground when rolling on concrete. One may also point out that the knee-on-neck position commonly seen in Silat systems is far superior for the street than knee-on-stomach. Another view point may revolve around BJJ’s training methods that develop flow, while others may contend that riding your opponent is superior to pinning them.

Whatever the case, all grappling systems have different things to offer, but as a whole most are designed for the ring and not the pavement arena. However, I really get tired of many so-called Reality Based systems who use terms like Anti-Grappling; this reeks of people not being able to deal and understand position, movement and neutralization when it comes to being in a ground fight. Another very important point to bring up (that is often left out from many systems’ doctrine) is the fact that if you are in a ground fight, somewhere along the line you screwed up and are now fighting from a late phase vantage point.

Out

Joe

Great post joe!
Anti grappling......how much more delusional get anyone get?
Mick x

Nice post Joe. Good points made.

Anti grappling......how much more delusional get anyone get?

Yeah, I absolutely agree 100%! Because so many street and reality systems espouse not going to the ground as a major strategy, many practitioners are suddenly led to believe that they do not have to be skilled on the ground. This couldn't be further from the truth.
However, many sport grappling systems rely so much on the "fights go to the ground 98% of the time" tagline, many are easily seduced into the endless grappling counter-for-counter chains that leads us away from a survival mindset when having to deal with a grounded scenario.
A few years back, Hock gave me some worldwide criminal justice stats that insinuated that a more believable figure is that fights go to the ground about 64% of the time. No statistics can be exact, but these seem more reaonable to me than the grappling school's sales pitch. One thing is for sure that we can bet on- fights may go to the ground over 50% of the time in a street altercation, but 100% of the time they start standing up!

Out

Joe

Rick faye says exactly the same! Myself i love grappling/csw but on a nice matted floor! Outside the chippy on a friday night is no place for ne-waza, just out of interest what did you think of voo's enigma dvd esp.re:bjj?
Mick x

Hi Mick

Please let me first say that Voo, in my opinion, is one of the most influential martial artists and teachers of our time. He was really the first guy to break from the JKD politics and go his own way. I have most of Paul’s videos/DVDs and have seen the Enigma. Most of it (as he openly states) is a culmination of all his other videos. There is really nothing new (apart from some interviews); it is all the staple PFS stuff you would expect.

The BJJ/Kina Mutai Blend is there, but a more in-depth look at this can be seen in his PFS DVD, Kina Mutai and TRS Brutal Solutions DVD. The “Leaping Face Bite” on The Enigma was a little too cartoony for practical application and I was surprised that Paul added this.

All in all, Paul is a real badass who can really fight. I only trained with him in person once and did the small group private session. He kicked everybody’s ass, standing and grounded. His BJJ game is awesome! Many criticize him because he added the biting to circumvent the odds on the street, but anybody who has rolled with Paul knows that he is a world class BJJ player. He is also a great teacher.

Many may ask why I didn’t carry on with Paul; he had some personal issues and the unpredictability of his nature led me to study with Hock. A lot of people don’t realize that Hock trained with and was an instructor under Paul in the late 80s. Hock originally was a student of the late Terry Gibson and hooked up with Paul through that connection. Hock has always spoken highly about Paul, but because Hock was a Texas cop, he was forced to disassociate from Paul sadly due to Paul’s personal life choices. When Hock was invited to train in the Philippines with Ernesto Presas, he dropped the whole JKD connection because he was told if he went outside of the “family” it would be looked down on. Go figure- Bruce would be rolling in his grave!

I have heard from several people including Jeff Clancy that Paul is healthy and doing real well now in his personal life. That’s great news as he definitely still has so many great things to offer the general martial arts community.

Out

Joe

hey Joe,
i too have heard about Paul's demons,but Michael Wright,Rick Faye and a bunch of guys from the kali group have told me he's def. worth training with! He was really influential with regard to me getting into JKD/Kali as he struck me as a guy who really could do it...for real!Re; the enigma i too thought it was a bit too theatrical in places but in my eyes the guy is a true trail blazer.
i've also heard that he's back on track...which is great ...some of the guys out there at the moment on the net have questioned Paul and his methods/Validity....i think it would be fun to hear his views....and for some of them to try and attempt to "argue" their case!
thanks for the balanced posts throughout the forum mate
mick x

Good posts guys.

I've been with Paul since March 98, and with PFS since Jan 96 with Mike Brewer and Tom Cruse. To this day, on any day, Paul's material is what I would always fall back on if my life or those I loved was on the line.

Everything you have heard about Paul is probably true, and there's loads of stuff you haven't that is also. You know what? Its never bothered me. I went to Paul to learn how to fight, so his personal life is of no consequence to me, in fact I have always enjoyed the reality that Paul's experiences come from the darker side of life. Who wants a priest or a politician to teach them how to kick the fck out of someone?

Paul has been, and remains, my single most important inspiration in functional combat. Over the last ten years he has been a great support, a great influence, and at times a huge pain in the ass. But I love him for all of it, and the only thing I ever say to anyone who says he ain't all that is - "here's his address mate, go tell him".

No takers yet.

Personally i think anything that gets you used to fighting on the ground is well worth the time and effort. Let's face it, most scraps in the street end up on the ground and it's a whole different world down there than up here so to speak.
Time spent rolling and just learning to relax on the ground is invaluable in my experience, main point being there are many simple things that can be used if your relaxed enough and have good enough defence to bide your time so to speak before you use them.
Now i'm not talking about arm bars and triangles etc i mean gouging and shredders for example, simple and fucking devastating if your commented enough and nasty enough to use them full on.
One in particular is my favourite but its top secret, lol.