Integrity - The Nature of

I realise I have been relatively niche in my interactions in this forum thus far so I would like to open something up for general debate/discussion.

In the world of MA/RBSD what place has integrity?

I take it as given that everyone is entitled to a little artistic license, I doubt there is anyone, myself included, who hasn't exaggerated a little from time to time.

At what point does artistic license become a lie white, malicious or otherwise?

Is it ethical to mislead deliberately?

For my part, within my job integrity is paramount. If I were caught or suspected of misleading/lying deliberately then my position becomes untenable and I would expect to have discipliinary action taken against me as well as suffer the social/professional repurcussions for a long time.

Any thoughts?

I quite like this definition of "Integrity"

Integrity may be seen as the quality of having a sense of honesty and truthfulness in regard to the motivations for one's actions.
The term "hypocrisy" is used in contrast to integrity for asserting that one part of a value system demonstrably conflicts with another, and to demand that the parties holding apparently conflicting values account for the discrepancy or change their beliefs to improve internal consistency.

What is your proffession, out of interest, Choff?

For me, surely integrity has to be something you have as a person and not just something you demonstrate in one aspect of your life - your profession for example, or your martial art.

All I do know is that life will test your integrity every waking moment.
It's a constant challenge to maintain your integrity and it can all be lost with one action.

We may still make mistakes but integrity is about having an honest belief that you are doing or saying the right thing - even if others think or prove it to be inaccurate or your later agree that it is inaccurate - after all, our view changes as we grow higher - we can all change our minds - Integrity is about being honest about that.

What say the others?

integrity has to be the lable OTHERS give you based on their knowledge, understanding and dealings with you.. you cannot say for yourself that yopu have integrity, you can only hope to ACT with integrity in mind then pray it comes off right

Al Peasland wrote:I quite like this definition of "Integrity"

Integrity may be seen as the quality of having a sense of honesty and truthfulness in regard to the motivations for one's actions.
The term "hypocrisy" is used in contrast to integrity for asserting that one part of a value system demonstrably conflicts with another, and to demand that the parties holding apparently conflicting values account for the discrepancy or change their beliefs to improve internal consistency.

What is your proffession, out of interest, Choff?

For me, surely integrity has to be something you have as a person and not just something you demonstrate in one aspect of your life - your profession for example, or your martial art.

All I do know is that life will test your integrity every waking moment.
It's a constant challenge to maintain your integrity and it can all be lost with one action.

We may still make mistakes but integrity is about having an honest belief that you are doing or saying the right thing - even if others think or prove it to be inaccurate or your later agree that it is inaccurate - after all, our view changes as we grow higher - we can all change our minds - Integrity is about being honest about that.

What say the others?

I like the definition Al although i also like the inclusion that it is also an interpertation of how others see you and regardless of how highly I may hold my own integrity, it counts for nothing if that is not how other percieve me.

My profession is Army Officer. For example, if my integrity became questionable in relation to my social dealings then it is compromised in all my dealings.

An honest belief also has a lot to play, after all everybody has been mislead by others and made honest decisions built on someone elses lie.

Absolutely - integrity cannot be isolated into one aspect of your life - it is a definition of You as a person and your actions simply reflect that

I don't think things can be as black and white as making honest decisions on someone else's lies.
Sure - that could be a scenario, but how about, making honest decisions on someone elses advice that - they believed to be true and told you in good faith - but was actually inaccurate.

For example, a lady on one of my courses recently had the firm belief of the old self defence myth that palm heeling an attacker in the nose will push his nose bone (whatever that may be) into their brain and kill them.
She firmly believed that - as I'm sure did the person who told her. Does that mean that person had lied to her or simply did not know the real facts. I'm sure they believed it themselves.


Ultimately - you could define integrity on how others perceive you but then, why worry what others think so long as you can sleep easy at night and are at peace with yourself.

As my grandafther said - if you can't do someone a good turn - then don't do them a bad one.
Simple and covers most bases if you ask me

Good topic this - cheers

Ok, so we are talking 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation lies.

In the case of the lady she was told a 2nd generation lie which she merely perpetuated. I wouldn't find anything wrong with that and it certainly wouldn't blemish my opinion of her.

I didn't mean it is a definiton (ref how others percieve you, but it is a factor).

Personally, I value integrity above all (convenient I know hahahaha) and if I cannot trust somebody implicitly then I cannot trust them at all.

Its a good general topic for discussion and...... a little convenient in observing people's outlooks on matters in light of other long winded debates which never addressed a point and didn't come to resloution

plus, I like debating

Integrity is something that will stand up to testing, be it the integrity of a physical structure or someone's accountability for their actions.

Mind you, I'm sure there's a seminar where it can be certificated for a fee.....

Integrity is basically a belief in ones self and remaining constant to your own values, not anyone else values as every persons values differ therefore can Integrity be compared to morals, I submit that it cant as a person can show integrity in his public work but show a complete lack of morals behind closed doors take Dr Crippen or Fred West as examples people thought they showed integrity in their respective jobs but look what happened behind closed doors

See below

Integrity is one of the most important and oft-cited of virtue terms. It is also perhaps the most puzzling. For example, while it is sometimes used virtually synonymously with ‘moral,’ we also at times distinguish acting morally from acting with integrity. Persons of integrity may in fact act immorally—though they would usually not know they are acting immorally. Thus one may acknowledge a person to have integrity even though that person may hold importantly mistaken moral views.

When used as a virtue term, ‘integrity’ refers to a quality of a person's character; however, there are other uses of the term. One may speak of the integrity of a wilderness region or an ecosystem, a computerized database, a defense system, a work of art, and so on. When it is applied to objects, integrity refers to the wholeness, intactness or purity of a thing—meanings that are sometimes carried over when it is applied to people. A wilderness region has integrity when it has not been corrupted by development or by the side-effects of development, when it remains intact as wilderness. A database maintains its integrity as long as it remains uncorrupted by error; a defense system as long as it is not breached. A musical work might be said to have integrity when its musical structure has a certain completeness that is not intruded upon by uncoordinated, unrelated musical ideas; that is, when it possesses a kind of musical wholeness, intactness and purity.

Integrity is also attributed to various parts or aspects of a person's life. We speak of attributes such as professional, intellectual and artistic integrity. However, the most philosophically important sense of the term ‘integrity’ relates to general character. Philosophers have been particularly concerned to understand what it is for a person to exhibit integrity throughout life. Acting with integrity on some particularly important occasion will, philosophically speaking, always be explained in terms of broader features of a person's character and life. What is it to be a person of integrity? Ordinary discourse about integrity involves two fundamental intuitions: first, that integrity is primarily a formal relation one has to oneself, or between parts or aspects of one's self; and second, that integrity is connected in an important way to acting morally, in other words, there are some substantive or normative constraints on what it is to act with integrity.

However, by the very nature of the question it can be used to lead people into an ambush situation

Oops I appear to have killed the topic

Nope,
Just put the definition into laymans terms and I for truly enjoyed reading and then wondered and hoped some of the better points/qualities applied to me.......truly great stuff......beats hand vs palm debates anyday
Mick x

Ok for starters lets take Morals. There are no standards set down for morality and basicaly no two people have the exact same set of morals. The unwritten idea of morality we have to look at the common law statutes which give a general outline as perceived by the various people who set them up and this dates back to the Magna Carta and before that the 10 commandments, if you can ever get a copy of the Magna Carta laws it is a terrific and hilarious read containing such laws as "Death sentence for raping Nuns" and "thou shalt not fire a crossbow within 2 miles of a city wall" Laws and morals for that period which were good for the time but outdated now as are some peoples morals.

Something people at work constantly tell me is that its still legal for an englishman to kill a welshman as long as its with a bow and arrow and within the confines of the chester city walls.
As I`m welsh and work with a lot of english people in a factory near chester I would hope this law is no longer in effect, but you never know.

Would that be morally correct in this day and age although no doubt it was when the original law was passed !

P.S. dont go inside Chesters city wall just in case

moldeeside wrote:Something people at work constantly tell me is that its still legal for an englishman to kill a welshman as long as its with a bow and arrow and within the confines of the chester city walls.
As I`m welsh and work with a lot of english people in a factory near chester I would hope this law is no longer in effect, but you never know.

It's unfortunately an old law that was never updated, and it's only legal after midnight! Same as in England it's illegal to have a pig in your living room on a sunday, and it's illegal to eat mince pies on christmas day!! haha!! Funny old laws!

This has just got just too weird now guys!
What laws would you like to make?
Perhaps a new thread?
Most forums are in dire need of some new topics
Mick x