Over the Top or Justified Policing?

What do you think?

I watched without sound so not sure if it tells anymore info than can simply be seen but looks a little like heavy handed to me!

Do you think armin our Police with weapons such as these is a good thing?
Does giving them a piece of kit to be used as a last resort, temptation to use it as a first resort?


http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=18253

Responding to the video footage which shows a man being shot twice with a Taser gun, Amnesty International UK's Arms Programme Director, Oliver Sprague said:

'While we do not know the specifics of the case, from what we can see from the footage, Amnesty International has serious concerns about the way in which the Taser was used in this incident.

'The footage shows the man surrounded by four police officers, on the ground and apparently under effective control when he was Tasered for a second time. From what we can see, this appears to be a clear breach of the way in which Tasers should be used.

'Tasers should only be used where the situation presents an immediate threat to life or serious injury.

'Amnesty International urges the IPCC to carry out a full and thorough investigation into this incident and to raise the questions as to whether the officers were justified to shock this man with a Taser when he was already on the ground.'

Footage from a person's mobile phone camera shows the man struggling during the incident on Sunday night [14 June] in Upper Parliament Street, Nottingham, as four officers attempted to arrest him.

Amnesty International has always insisted that Tasers are potentially lethal and inherently open to abuse. The organisation has recorded that since 2001 more than 346 people have died after being shocked with a Taser in the United States.

Many were subjected to repeated or prolonged shocks - far more than the five-second standard cycle - or by more than one officer at a time. Some people were even shocked for failing to comply with police commands after they had been incapacitated by a first shock.

Amnesty International believes that Tasers can only be used if:

· Officers carrying Tasers are trained to firearms officer standards on an ongoing basis

· Tasers are used as a weapon of last resort - in situations which fall only just below the point when lethal force should be used.

· Roll-out is highly restricted and then only to specially trained officers

· The Home Office has demonstrated how the use of Taser will be consistent with its obligations under international human rights guidelines and what policies and procedures are in place to prevent misuse of electro-shock weapons.

I'll be keen to see what else unfolds as the investigation progresses!

[quote]

I would like to know what the guy had done before/wanted for or had in his possession before justifying the taser or not;however the second officer who throws the punches will find it hard to explain

It's very hard to judge what is shown not saying we have the right or are in the position to do so. It's a bit like Rodney King where the beating was broadcasted all over the world but Rodney being an asshole wasn't.

He was thrown out of a bar by bouncers who called in the cops so he won't have been a nice guy. I assume the police is profesional enough to decide if the suspect is going to pose a threat after they get him up to transport him to the station.

Kind Regards,

Nick Engelen

Not knowing on this occasion what threat the guy poses - due to hidden weapons, etc - could justify some of this perhaps

What the guy had actually done or been reported to have done though shouldn't make any difference should it?

Only the threat perceived by the officers at the time should govern their actions and measured use of force - regardless of the suspects alleged crimes - no matter how mush we would want them to dish out some instant justive to certain individuals - that's not their place is it?

Personally, I think more tough policing would be welcome - but then we see some female OAP in the states being tazered and we have to be careful who we give this power too!

To me from what I’ve seen of the footage it looks a little OTT .I think the other two coppers could have quite easily detained the bloke without zapping him two more times.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for strong policing and feel they should be given a lot more powers when it comes to dealing with idiots who have nothing better to do with their time than cause trouble for the majority of decent people in this country.

Not saying the guy in this case is any of the above don’t know him or what he’s all about.

I think the police have a hard enough time of it with the way society is these days which is probably why they spend so much time caught up in paper work just to cover their backs if accusations are made against them.

For me personally I think they do a good job most of the time, it’s the justice system that lets them down. Do they get it right all the time ? Of course not their no different to anyone, they mess up and make mistakes.

So basically, without sounding like someone from the West Midlands Police recruiting section, I think in this incident it looked a little excessive but I think they should match all situations with the same amount of threat and aggression as they encounter. Unfortunately as we all probably know some people’s communication and diplomacy skills haven’t yet evolved past the stone age and for them it may be the only language they understand. We all have a choice about the level at which we communicate.

I try to be nice

Interesting clip,

It's hard to tell what went on before but perhaps if the guy didn’t resist arrest they wouldn't use such excessive force

It looks excessive to taser him when he is already on the floo but from the angle that this is shown I can't see whether or not he posed a threat.

If the officer with the taser deemed the man on the floor to be enough of a threat then fair enough. If on the other hand the taser was used to make the downed man comply with a request then thats another story. As for the copper who hit him, well, how would it be judged if I was striking an already downed guy?

I agree that the use of force is correct in the correct setting but only in the right hands.

I reckon this video and the subsequent enquiry will stir up a real hornets nest!

Not sure where I read it but I thought Tasers were meant to be a last resort type tool.
Used by trained firearms officers not the everyday bobby on the beat - I could be totally wrong of course and I guess it's down to each constabulary I suspect.

However, if it IS a last resort weapon other than the use of firearms - what other options would the policeman in question have had?

I'm sure it would have looked even worse if he'd started to whack him with his baton.

So will police now favour using a Taser over a baton do you think?

The risk of the suspect having heart attacks and the like from the taser could be outweighed by the risks of cracked skulls from the baton perhaps - maybe the Police are now considering tasers as a safer alternative.
And I guess his palls who were on or near the suspect would rather the taser be used than the risk of them all being pepper sprayed or gassed!

Totally agree Steve - they have a tough job and with more video footage like this being ever present - they are now under more scrutiny than ever before - I don't envy them!

Slowly the tazer has become a part of a number of response officers tool. THe officers in the clip appeared to have the darker uniform indicating that they are firearms officers.
Since its introduction the taser has slowly crept up the conflict resolution model, since its trial its become a better option than a good old fashioned baton strike or a face full of spray. Its a five second burst then the suspect is back to normal minus his bottle to fight! The other two options leaves more injuires (Depends who strikes lol)and last longer.

It's another sticky subject Al! Until we know what lead up to the taser being used we can't really comment on that. I think they were right to taser the second time as the downed guy was not being compliant. The cop throwing punches though should be suspended as that is excessive force. The downed guy couldn't defend himself, wasn't lashing out to hit anyone, and was just trying to stop the cops putting the cuffs on him by keeping his arms in close!
It's press like this that make the cops job harder, but giving such powers like tasers, batons, sprays etc to people, there will always be a minority that abuse it and overstep the mark, hoping to get away with it! It's a shame really!

Good posts guys - but to carry it on just a little further

If the guy wasn't fighting back and so didn't deserve the punches - surely there were enough police officers there to get the cuffs on the un-compliant guy without requiring a further tasering?

Just playing devils advocate here you understand

I totally agree with you yes there were enough and in my opinion the punching was unecessary.

I think the other police officers should have easily been able to restrain the guy without the use of the tazer and if they honestly couldn’t then may be should really be looking for another job or a bit more training.

But on the other hand I think a lot of people really focus on the rights of the person being detained. I mean, maybe I’ve been really fortunate, but I can’t remember the last time I got tazered or beat up by the local police. But I think that’s because I don’t go round causing trouble and being a pain in the ass on society. You get back what you put in to things.

So to spice up the debate a little more: do you really have any right to complain about what treatment you get from the police if you’re only in the situation because of your own wrongdoing? I mean, couldn’t it be argued that if you weren’t there causing trouble in the first place you would be treated perfectly well like the rest of society?

I agree with you on this Steve, the guy lost his chance to a quiet ''human rights'' arresst as soon as he started playing up. A previous thread on this forum asked '' what would you do if someone broke into your house'' and as 99% of replys ended in going physical on the intruder in my opinion this is just what the Police have done in this situation, someone has started playing up on their patch and did not want to come quietly so they have used non-lethal force to gain compliance.

Im no Police expert and have no friends or family in the force but would like to know how much physical C&R (control and restraint) training they recieve. We as members of self defence and martial arts clubs have a distinct advantage by the nature of our loved sport/hobby/way of life and it would be a great shame to think that the Police who patrol our streets for our safety and well being have less than appropiate training and practice at controling the darker sides of our communities.

My full support will always be with a Police officer if they are acting in a split second that could result in members of the public other officers or themselves being at risk.

So to wrap up, did they use reasonable force? The guy was incapacitated and arrested with no injury to Police or public, with too much force we will never really know but I would say ''job done''.

Tim

how much physical C&R (control and restraint) training they recieve.

Good question mate - I would guess not very much in the grand scheme of things - but I'm not in a position to comment - perhaps someone else on here can though.

I'd go one step further and ask - how much Training in general do Police have to do? What levels of fitness must they maintain in order to do their job properly?

Judging by some - and I mean only some - that I've seen, not very much!
Height restrictions have reduced over the years I believe, to a point where Police are no longer physically a deterrant - in my opinion.
Don't want to sound old here - so I will use my father's generation as an example.
Policemen were always very tall and very imposing - doesn't seem to be a pre-requosite anymore.

Perhaps that's why this lack of training and resulting lack of condifence to handle suspects is resulting in a more ready use of tasers and the like - to bolster the police officer's confidence!
Just my opinion of course

The police havetwo days training on C and R a year which is absolutely crap!!! Some good stuff in the trianing but two days a year is not enough, as for fitness the level to achieve is really really low!

I think the main question here is why was he tasered in the first place. The taser is used as less than lethal force but would still need to be justified. It is not a decision taken lightly and definatley not the first option to be used. The guy getting arrested would have also been issued with a warning before actually being shot with it. He chose to ignore it, kind of points to the mentality of the person they were dealing with.

Being tasered hurts, I was tasered in Canada on a traininhg course before working with the Canadian Police and i never want to experience pain like it again. However, if i was to it would only need to be the once for compliance to be achieved.

Equally the punches going in seem reasonable to me, the guy wasn't realising his arm to be cuffed, pretty standard technique. As a note the guy using the taser in Notts are only fire arms trained officers.

Hi guys

Very good discussion.

I think in terms of this particular instance it looks a little excessive but to be honest such an overreaction will be due, in part, to a complete lack of training.

Due to impossible resource and budget constraints, the Staff Protection training in most constabularies is so miniscule its shocking. That is no reflection on the Staff Protection Instructors, who try to do a great job, its just they are barely given the chance to do so. I'm the Edged Weapons Defence Instructor for my local Police Force, and I get 3 hours with their team every year. That's the only amount of time they can allocate to this training, 3 hours every year. Think about how hard you guys train each week, can you imagine what your level would be like if your training consisted of 3 hours every year? Its a crime (pardon the pun)

I've also done a lot of work with officers from the Metropolitan Police Force, and these guys have come to me just asking for basic Self Protection skills. I always start by saying "could you show me what you have done so far" and when they do - its shocking. Again, that is no reflection on their instructors who do the best they can, but as a previous poster said they get about 2 days training a year. Police Officers have an incredibly dangerous role to play on the streets of our country in 2009 and, out of anyone, they need to be trained at the highest level to deal with the threat they face. From what I have seen, they are trained to the very lowest level and are not given any time to develop their skills. One of the STI's from the Met showed me their formal Knife Defence curriculum, and as I sat down to read it my jaw hit the floor. It is absolutely dreadful, and I'm really sorry to say that it is going to get someone killed (if it hasn't already). I offered to re-write it on my own time and train all of their staff free of charge but, as I'm sure you appreciate, politics and red tape got in the way.

In my opinion and experience, the Police Officers on our streets are no better trained to deal with violence than an average white belt with a few weeks of basic training. They may be armed to an extent, but even the baton training is very traditional and fundementally flawed when it comes to dealing with a resisting opponent. The officers who are physically competent achieve this level only because they dedicate their own time and money to outside study, which is admirable but totally inconsistent. I also give my respect to the Staff Protection teams who constantly struggle with tiny budgets and time slots to bring in other people to help train their guys. Its a hell of a job, I wouldn't want it.

There are some brilliant instructors on this forum, and I'm sure some of you already work with the Police. If you don't, why not contact your local force and volunteer to go in and show them some training. All of the work I do with the Police is completely free of charge. I'm not saying you should do the same, but they really need the help of people like you guys. You'd be making a big difference.

Thanks

MW