Knife crime

What with knife crime being in the news ,what seems like every day would anyone like to share they're opinions why these guys and sometimes girls feel the need to carry Knives.And if anyone has any thoughts on the banning of some weapons.When stanley knives ,screwdrivers and kitchen knives are readily available.
Just some food for thought ?

Ooh how can I do this without me turning it into some massive rant about society today. hmmm lets see
I think the recent increase in knife crime is down to a few things, the main one being (in my belief) the lack of discipline in schools and by parents over the last decade or so that has led to the youth of today growing up with a sense that it doesn't matter what they do, because they can get away with it regardless. They just don't care (and they're all growing into adults with that mentality). This in turn, leads to a different perspective of right and wrong, which in turn leads to a different level of violence being used in our streets. I also think the way society hears and reads about this sort of thing isn't right either. The government has a tendency to make it look like they're doing things (to the general populace who don't see the violence or street crime and just read about it or hear about it on the news), by saying they're banning knives and pocket knives etc, when in fact, the majority of knife crime is done, as Karl stated above, with kitchen knives, stanley knives and screwdrivers. They did the same thing with guns years ago. Make it safer on the streets by banning handguns, but did the criminal fraternity give theirs back? As if. Is it safer on the streets? no!
It was only last bank holiday monday at 5am in the morning on the street where I work (on the doors) that three lads got into an altercation with a group of youths, one of whom had a knife. One of the three lads had his throat cut and one was stabbed in the back five times. Thankfully they all lived but when discussing it afterwards they said they got steamrolled. These three guys could have a fight but against a large group of youths, one of which was armed they stood no chance. Now admittedly, they shouldn't have got themselves in that situation in the first place.. awareness, avoidance etc but sometimes you may not have a choice.
To conclude my 2p worth, I refer back to the original question of should knives be banned and in all honesty, I don't think they should. Maybe allowing the likes of us martial arts types to have a license, similar to a gun license would be a better way of approaching it, but I think at the end of the day, the government needs to realise that if someone is really intent on stabbing another person, they will do it one way or another so you won't be changing anything. It's in education, good parenting and discipline where the war will be won.

Spot on Steve - don't think I can add anything to that.

Totally agree with you there Steve.I only wish i could have said it as eloquently

If we ban knives......... They will use spoons
If we ban spoons......... They will find something else

Once we were victims of society now for the majority we are a society of victims.
The only real solution is to ban people

Cracking post dave, spot on mate
Cant add anything to that, I think you summed it up perfectly

Craig

the only thing that needs 'banning' is INTENT.. anything esle is just a fashion statement of the weapon of choice for today..

in my SDF and our sister company Your Guardians Ltd, we are currently in talks with the Home Office (Serious Crime Unit), several Chief Constables, and even the Royal Armouries in Leeds with regards to our K.A.P. .. (Knife Awareness Programme).. we are expecting Home office approval shortly for our programme which will be carried out in schools, colleges and universities... This programme is NVQ Level 3, and run under the auspices of the Institute of Conflict Management, and carries our own copyright attached..

watch this space guys, we are taking off big style in teh coming months as the programme will be introduced officially in the TEN major 'core'cities under Home Office Approval

Nice work Dave,

I'm interested to know what approach you will take to this with regards the teaching, particularly when going into schools.

As was already said, it's a difficult balance between making people aware of knives, the dangers, the seriousness, but not making them intrigued and more interested at the same time.

Will you be focusing on the damage they cause, the seriousness of them, or more on the defence against the knife stuff?

For me, recently taking up JKD with Terry Barnett, I've been introduced to the knife more now than I have over the years. One of the benefits I'm finding more and more in training with edged weapons is the reality of just how deadly they are - so it's a great way to appreciate just what damage they can inflict and just how careful we all need to be.
The downside is that means actually training in knife fighting skills - which isn't something we'd necessarily want to take into schools.

I guess, in my long winded way, what I'm particularly interested in is how you approach the safety and self defence aspect without getting too deep into teaching the children knife skills.

This is a serious interest, only because as my own club grows, Mick Tully and I are looking to work more closely with schools and colleges, have kids classes, etc, and it's definitely something I want to cover more.

Cheers mate

AL

Nice Work dave will be interesting to see how it goes.

Cracking post Al, Love the idea of schools and colleges, and kids classes etc. ill drag my kids along to see you guys mate

Scary thing is, you hear, knife this, knife that all over the news, papers, magazines, etc etc

with intent, as already mentioned it pretty much does not matter what is being held, be it a knife, a screwdriver or a bloody screwdriver

however training in edged weapons definately gives you a different perspective, I have not done a lot, but dabbled in it a few years ago before my instructor who was a family friend moved away. was bloody scary to see what can be done with intent and tool of any sort.

Craig

Al Peasland wrote:Nice work Dave,

I'm interested to know what approach you will take to this with regards the teaching, particularly when going into schools.

This was a big internal debate I had originally about teaching children knife defence. In the end, however, I had face the situation head-on. Knives are today's reality for youngsters. I only had one parent protest and once I explained why, he quickly agreed and started telling me of instances he knew of involving children and knives.

The key is correct discussion about the issue backed up by case studies. This is what Rich and I found anyway.

My recent article on the issue: http://www.clubbchimera.com/?p=290

It's not knives that are the problem - it's people. When I was a kid in the '50's every kid had a sheaf knife or penknife and the worst we did was to whittle wood or play 'splits' with them. I carried a knife as a cub, a scout a fireman and a security officer, all for practical and innocuous reasons.

The government ban weapons and only the villains carry them, the OAP's women and vulnerable people could probably do with an 'equaliser' as no one else ever comes to their rescue nowadays through fear of being arrested or hurt.

The government fails the people and blames objects that are unable to commit crimes by themselves.

Nice post Steve

again it all comes down to the individual
look around your house how many potential weapons do you have
answer? LOADS. but it boils down to the education on them but no matter how many laws are in place, and how many things get banned, only to be replaced by something else.

sods law, take away one thing we aint allowed, we as a populace find something else to replace it.

Craig

Dispatches next Monday night is about the gun/weapon crime in the UK. I saw the advert for it tonight at the gym and it made me go cold, brilliantly done.

Tackling the street weapon explosion
Dispatches, showing Monday June 30th on Channel 4 at 8:00pm

http://library.digiguide.com/lib/uk-tv-highlight/Dispatches-4013/Documentary/

Forgive my ignorance here guys but are they actually thinking of banning knives? Or is the governement saying that they are going to actually bother to implement exisiting laws re the carrying of offensive weapons?

We have become a knife carrying culture a very high percentage of kids from certain social groups are carrying them. The reasons might be complex but total lack of deterrent or discipline in any area of life is one of them. There is no custodial time for carrying a blade unless it is actually used in an attack, especially for under 18s. I think the current laws should be stricty enforced and sentencing should be harsh for such offences or we will find that knife carrying becomes so entrenched that it is gonna be real hard to do a thing about it. We may have reached that stage already.

Carrying screwdrivers, box cutters .. whatever ... all illegal when carried with no good reason. I don't think allowing everyone to carry a blade is a good idea either as I think some are suggesting. I may be misreading some posts but that's what it sounds like. We all know, most likely the first thing you'll a knife was used is after you've been stabbed. No one pulls a knife in the killings you read about and gives the other guy the chance to do the same. The knife attack is disguised and brutal .. if you as the "good guy" are carrying a blade, genuinely intending to use it only to defend yourself, when will you draw and use it? If you want to have a chance you need to draw it and use it before he does the same with his .. otherwise it is a bit of a lottery. But how can you be sure the other guy has a blade and is going to attack you? He looked sneaky? Sounds like "wild west" time to me.

People habitually carrying edged\stabbing weapons are a big problem for our society now. I'm not sure how it can really be tackled, but I don't buy the I'm only carrying to defend myself plea a lot of young kids come out with. I'm carrying to be cool is more like it. Kids won't listen until they get into trouble and get a severe sentence.

I could be wrong though! Wouldn't be the first time

Hi Aasim

I completely agree.

I've never been a big advocate of carrying weapons as a form of self protection.
Even those who carry keys or sprays, or anything else for that matter and declare it is for self defence, in my opinion, is useless.

Unless you have the weapon in your hands constantly and are switched on enough to be able to use it first, you might as well not bother.

A classic example is women, and some men perhaps who carry things in their handbag. If you've got time to rummage through your bag to pull out your can of hairspray, you've got time to leg it!

The other danger is carrying weapons that you end up losing in the skirmish and having them used against you.

It's kind of like having a weapon in every room of your house - which ultimately means your burglar has access to all of the weapons in your house except for the one beside your bed.

It's an attitute change that is required along with more realistic sentencing that supports the efforts of the Police.

I could be wrong too though - it happens quite alot

AL

mmm ok talking as a woman! - I do have weapons in my house, for me it makes me feel safe, I do take the point that it gives anyone breaking into my house access to them, I have taught my housemate how to use them, but my main advise to her is lock the door in your bedroom and call the police and on a personal note it makes me feel safer, so I don’t see the issue.

I also carry a weapon on my key ring, which I have with me all the time, it’s beside me on my desk at work, when I leave a train my keys are the first thing in my hands etc. I am not paranoid, I just feel safer with it esp. when I am getting off a train in not a great area and having to walk to my car on my own sometimes at 10pm at night.

Personally I know people who carry weapons, my perspective is, if you carry it or you have stuff in your house you also carry the responsibility of what you do with it (understanding reasonable force) and of course what others can do to you. You could argue this point over and over, at the end of the day people will do what they want to make themselves feel safe.

I think it should also be address that MA/cage fights etc are much more in the media as well.. How has this impacted on what people think they can do?

At the end of the day you can argue everyone carries a weapon of some kind with them everyday, car keys, high heels, laptop etc most of us on this forum learn how to seriously hurt if not kill someone – what makes us any better than those that carry a weapon? - When what we learn makes us the weapon!
May be we think we know how to have control and they don’t – how many can put their hands up and say that they feel total control 100% of the time?
May be we think they are the idiots for carrying weapons, or may be we just have to accept that society has changed, not necessarily for the better, but it has, now more than ever the media is showing horrible stories- I am wondering if these where always there but now the media is interested?

I am not saying that something should not be done eps. around young children and teenagers carrying weapons, what I am saying is that this situation will only get worst, surely our responsibility is not to judge how or why people carry weapons etc is it to protect themselves or b/c of a gang or whatever, but help them understand the consequences of their actions in doing so and help reduce the fear that is seeming to cause our society to spiral out of control.

I agree with what everyone's saying. I think alot of kids are "tooling up" out of fear of weapon attack though. It's a subconscious feeling of "having the upper hand" should an attack on them take place. Maybe they feel they'll stand a better chance. Personally though, i have no respect for anyone in the street who has to use a weapon in a fight. For me a weapon tells me they're weak. Plus like Al said, what's to stop the weapon being stripped from their hands and used against them?! If the person with the weapon is untrained and doesnt know how to use it they could end up causing more damage than they intended.

Tigger

What is the weapon on your key chain? Is it a kubotan or something similar? What weapons do your friends carry? Have your or they had accoasion to use them? I'd be genuinely insterested to know, how it went. I mean I am dubious about many of the things people think they can access and use as weapons in a fight but not all. I seem to remember an incident in London when gangs who were "steaming" on trains came across a guy who was doing a crossword, he didn't care to be mugged at knife point and stuck his pen into the kid's eye. It worked - I don't know the exact details, where was the kid holding the knife? .. was his attention on another passenger when the guy decided to take action? .. It woud be very interesting to know. It takes a lot of nerve to bring that off .. respect to the man. I do remember that the guy was prosecuted but found not guilty of any wrong doing
As Al says this guy had it in his hand and was switched on. He also had time to see what was happening before they got to him as they moved down the train and chose his moment to attack. Good for him.

My personal objection is to the idea that everyone should be allowed to carry blades in the UK as I don't trust most people to show enough restraint in there use. I think there will be more injuries and deaths.

You say any one who trains to fight is a weapon and are they therefore anydifferent to someone less trained carrying a weapon? Well I've been training for 25 years plus but I wouldn't fancy my chances against an angry and unbalanced 13 year old with zero training but with a knife and no moral qualms. Knives do the job of weapon brilliantly, they are cheap as chips and make killing much easier. That's why they are the weapon of choice for so many kids. They are used to ambush attack with, not defend, in all the incidents we read in the press. Usually an ambush after some percieved disrespect or a gang initiation. You don't hear of many knife on knife fights. I don't see how carrying your own blade or improvised weapon would help in those situations. You'll have been stabbed. It's happend to a student of mine ... total out of the blue initiation stabbing from behind. No idea what happened .. saw a kid runnig away and felt a throbbing in his arm .. thought he'd been punched .. classic.

I don't know what he answers are to this problem in our society, but I know a copper who tells me they catch plenty of these kids carrying .. the profile they use to stop and search is very effective (it is not racial profiling by the way). But they confiscate the weapons and the kids are back out on the street in no time. He has even caught an adult brandishing a knife in the open in south London on a high street in braod daylight and the CPS would not prosecute for a criminal offence! I think those conditions in themselves are a major contributors to people carrying blades .. they do it because they can with impunity. He hasn't ever caught one guy he thought was a good kid that was just scared and carrying for self defense.

Who knows? .. interesting thread though!

Hello again folks
RE: carrying due to fear.
The guys who got slashed/stabbed, whom I mentioned in my previous post, where attacked by a kid and his large group of mates, who I might add started the incident, so I don't think that he was carrying out of fear. There is no fear of consequences in these kids these days due to the way they are brought up/taught/treated by the law. A slap on the wrist and "off you go sonny, here's an ASBO" is hardly a deterent for violence is it and there lies one of the problems See my earlier post for further ranting .

As for carrying weapons ourselves and as martial artists are we the weapons? In some respects yes, but after a night on the doors when walking back to my car, am I confident in using my martial skills to defend myself against three or four grown adults I may have upset earlier in the evening..? not particuarly. I may hurt one or two but not before getting smashed to bits and possibly killed. I do have a kubotan on one of my sets of keys too and when walking back to my car I do have it ready to hand but would I use it on one idiot on his own? Probably not and that is where what we learn as sensible human beings and/or martial artists come in and what differentiates us from the street thugs. I'm not intent on killing someone for "disrespecting" me, but if someone is trying to attack me with his mates when I am going home, then we should be doing what is necessary and no more. Reasonable and necessary force and all that (another fantastic legal grey area.. I feel a different post coming on). However, having said all that, something that has already been mentioned has crossed my mind before now and that is what if they get it off me? Well for me it's the risk you take, I do work in an environment where you can get some come backs, maybe that gives me an excuse or a better reason but Self Protection is why we're here and that is my choice at the current time.
On a final note, I watched the 'Dispatches' program tonight and it was very good, but did everyone take note of the amount of kitchen knives used?

Yeah LOTS of kitchen knives.
What I also found interesting was the "disrespect"ting.
The one guy said that you may never amount to anything anywhere else in the world but ,you'll always be a name on your street where you "proved" your self. VERY narrow mind set on some of these guys.Almost child like?

Also interesting how they spoke about the gang being a surrogate" Family" or tribe nothing new there .As I think most of us agree that if the home life if fractured(no father at home or abusive parents etc) who sets the rules ?Who disciplines? Who show these boys how to be men? Then joining a gang is very tempting.
As for saying I only carry a blade for protection .Becuase everyone else is carrying one. Well how many of the incidents have been knife on knife?
Very interesting programme no with no short term answers I'm afraid

my thoughts are:

anyone caught with a blade should be jailed. plain and simple. we can try and sort out society etc but that's a long term goal. what's going to happen to many innocent people getting stabbed in the interim? the first goal should therefore by, take these people off the street.

we could spend forever finding out why people feel the need to stab others etc . However it's largely, although not exclusively due to the need for a strong deterant. look at parts of the middle east, there is almost next to no violent crime, because if you do commit a crime you get whipped and or put in a rather grim hole.

What I also found interesting was the "disrespect"ting.
The one guy said that you may never amount to anything anywhere else in the world but ,you'll always be a name on your street where you "proved" your self. VERY narrow mind set on some of these guys.Almost child like?

Did anyone else noticed how the young kid in london who was lured to his death by that honeytrap was crying for his mother while he lay bleeding to death?
I have also seen the pics of him on Bebo acting all "gangsta" but i think who he needed as he was dying just reaffirms that these are just kids playing a very dangerous game!

great posts guys really enlightening....maybe it is time to start punishing crime instead of appealing to a persons better "nature"
mick x

With you on that one all the way
Karl

Me too.

I have one more thought - perhaps this should be a separate thread though.

All these kids talk about carrying knives to defence themselves, and yet all those being killed on a now, worryingly, frequent basis don't appear to have been armed themselves.
So not so much knife on knife action.

So playing Devils advocate here (for the purposes of discussion only), could this be that those carrying knives for "protection" purposes - it's actually paid off?

By that I mean - not that they have been able to defend themselves with their own knife, more that they have not been attacked because they had their own knife.

In other words, if we are more confident as a result of our training, subliminally we give off "I'm confident - don't f&*k with me" signals.
If carrying my own knife makes me feel more confident and secure, would I be giving off the same signals that could actually help me to remain un-selected by these thugs - consequently never actually needing the knife?

I have my own views, not necessarily those from my previous paragraphs, but thought I'd throw this in here for discussion

What do you guys think?