Martial Artists and Business

Had a great discussion with my good friend Mark the other night, on our weekly 2 hour journey to training.

And, as I am embarking on raising my own profile in the Martial Arts world it's something that I have a growing dilema with - perhaps you can all help.

As a martial artists growing up, I was always taught that humility and self control was one of the greatest attributes to develop. From an early age it was drummed into me in a very Traditional Karate Way that the better I become, the more humble I should become. With power comes responsibility.

And I've seen many times over, two top martial artists having a kind of humility stand off where they are so genuinly very humble and respectful of their counterpart that it becomes a battle of who can be the humblest
A: "You're a fantastic martial artist"
B: "No, you're the better martial artists"
A: "No, I think you'll find your way better than me"
B: Sorry, but you're definitely better than me"

Whilst funny, it's actually a beautiful thing to witness. Great people, top of their game, being some humble and polite and courteous as if they were still at the bottom rung of a giant ladder.

However, we now come to the business aspect of Martial Arts. Some avoid this like the plague, but in this day and age, just to have a thriving class takes alot of promotion and advertising, particularly in the early stages.
Myself and Mick have both been blessed with a great Sunday Morning class in Coventry. And with little or no advertising we've managed to grow it to a small, but great group of people, all with a brilliant attitude to martial arts and self protection. But I fully appreciate that to grow this class to one that will actually financially support itself will take lots of marketing and business related efforts.

I now also have some products on the market and whilst I am not looking to become rich as a result of these, I am eager for them to be seen by as many people as possible as I believe I have something that may be of value to at least a few. In order to ensure my product reaches those few, I may have to touch many with them - if that makes any sense.

So my dilema is this.
When I follow my true beliefs as a martial artists and traditional karateka, I am conscious of a need for humility, respect, inner and outer quietness. Attributes that I hope are now normal and not a chore for me to retain.
But to promote what I have to offer to world as a self protection instructor, to get my message to, not only martial artists but the people who are more likely to require this information, I need to self promote, advertise myself and generally tell the world "how great I am" - "come listen to me".
Contrary to popular belief - not something that comes naturally

MacDonalds, whilst in my opinion, offering pretty naff food, would not advertise their new brand of McPlastic Burger as the following:-

"Come try our new McPlastis Burger. Not as good as Burger King down the road, but come try it anyway"

They would always, as does every other company, tell you how great they are and that they are the best in their field.

So I guess my question is this.
As martial artists - be that instructors or students or both, how do you reconcile this conflict between remaining true to the teachings of the art and also promoting yourself without appearing to be a big headed and up oneself?

Stay Safe - Have Fun

Al x

Hey Al,

Interesting post mate,
I too as im sure you would find many people on here who practice and have had good instruction feel the same as you do. I too had it drummed into me that with this power comes great responsibility. I have seen this kind of thing also in training with people. one more humble than the other. and thats all well and good but we all have different aspects we shine at in some field or another.

With regards to your self promoting mate, isnt it what everyone does in one field or another? whether its a brand of plastic burger or another, or one salesman showing how good he is to get a certain contract against his so called rival companies. The thing is you have a product for want of a better word which CAN and WILL change many peoples perspectives on self protection let alone save lives.

If I had a product like this, especially with the endorsements you have from it, IE, Peter C and Geoff etc etc. these people know the field they know what works and what does not and everyone has access to their history. Advertise it for all its worth mate. for the way I am looking at it is, if of all those books and dvds you sell or promote, saves but one life then who cares about the promotion and what you have to do. because that one life is worth everything.

Making money may not be your object and I see where you are coming from. so promote it for the right reason and it will fly mate. I suppose the being big headed is something you have to work on within yourself. you are not doing it for an ego trip I know that because I know you. You are ecstatic with the product and rightly so, I have shown you dvd to a few people and they now started to use the fence concepts as a ground base for what they do and how they are and incorporated into being part of them.

This one thing alone means you are already touching people in a way you dont see, put it out there mate and know you are doing it for the right reason. not to be a millionaire ( although that would be nice ). not to inflate your ego, or swell your head but to help people and potentially show someone one piece of information which can make all the difference.

You are remaining true mate, you train hard, you train honestly, and you teach without an ego or to make loads of money. you could not be more true to what you believe in than wanting to help people mate.

Sorry if I rambled and not sure if this made sense but I hope it does

Take care mate, and from a students point of view mate
Thanks for all you passed on to me as well mate.

Craig

Hi Al

I think the dilemma you're having stems back to a lot of old school traditional martial artists who believe that you shouldn't make money from martial arts. I read an article recently when a top ranking Kenpoist said that martial arts was "essentially a non-profitable entity by nature". Some systems have a creed which states that they will not instruct for money, although a lot of them still do! I tend not to agree with this train of thought as I see the training as a service and like any service there is usually a cost. I also think that the intention of the instructor is the most important thing. Let me explain. I have been involved with a couple of clubs who have a high turn-over of students (I know a lot of clubs do) and it seemed that everytime you turned around they were looking for money for something. They also ran a children's class and teenagers class; both were watered down so much that what the students were doing was unrecognisable...it was 'martial arts by numbers'. Students would stay for a while and then change to another system or just stop training. Basically, they would watch the very overweight instructor stand at the top of the class with his thumbs in his black belt looking arrogant and not very humble at all! He wouldn't work on kicks with students as he couldn't kick anymore. He did no conditioning as he wasn't able to and was knackered after performing a kata! Students saw the club as a money-making machine...not exactly a McDojo but they lost faith in the instructor/club and couldn't justify the expenditure anymore.

But now to the other side of that coin and back to my ideas about intention. I feel that with people like yourself, you genuinely love what you do and your instruction is top class. Your intention is to pass on valuable information and maybe saves some lives...I'm sure you have. That kind of instruction only comes from true passion for what you do. If you were only about the money, you wouldn't be nearly as good as you are. There is an honesty and genuine quality from a lot of people in this field and it is very easy to see through the people who are 'all front'. When respect is there, a student will learn and be happy to pay for training. I am happy to buy DVDs, books and attend seminars from people who I have read about or have a solid recommendation from someone whose opinion I respect. I think advertising your background is a respectable way to get attention; it's only when people fabricate their pasts that people get pissed off and have no respect or faith in the person. I personally, as someone who practises martial arts, sees an individuals solid background as something to aspire to as I know the hard work that they must have put in to get where they are. For example, a 5th Dan from the BCA is not handed out to just anyone! :-) And I would be happy to learn as much from that person as I could. But why would I expect them to give up their time, travel to a venue (petrol costs etc), hire the venue and instruct me...all for free?? It's just not practical or reasonable.

To sum it up in your case Al, you are humble...you don't throw your weight around, you instruct with integrity and honesty. You have put many years of work into what you do and it should pay off for you. I feel that once an instructor is teaching honestly, not just going through the motions, is respectful to students and is giving real value for money, then why shouldn't he/she be paid for that work. You are not being big-headed Al...you have earned your credentials, you've done it the hard and honest way and that speaks for itself.

Amen to that Jonny


Craig

Hi guys

yes this is a dilemma .. I have had the same for decades..

In a poll ran in a martial arts mag several years ago listing the 'top ten' pure self-defence/self-protection instructors, I was placed THIRD.. several people had placed me at No1 which is of course ludicrous

However of the guys IN the list I had taught (for varying anounts) SEVEN of them, and for larger amounts three of those, including Geoff Thompson...Jamie O'Keefe, Kevin O'Hagan . Alan Charlton and several others

now did that give the right to claim as one of my students once worte in something (to my embarassment)
Dave Turton s officially the highest graded pure self defence instructor at 8th Dan, with well over 40 years experience, and instructor to nearly (?) every top instructor in the UK.. (??)

Yet trying to couple honesty with humility, I KNOW (knew) I SHOULD be in the top ten, but not No1...

When NAP who filmed my DVD's started writing my ads I was horrified to read them.. in fact I rejected THREE drafts before I (reluctantly) allowed the ones that went out.

for many years the SDF and my system were NOT my main source of income, I was a part-timer .. now I am 100% full time and have to make a living.. its not easy, my annual income is DOWN over £3000 since I packed in my work to go full time..

its also down to some of the tripe and shite that exists in the UK.. there are some excellent guys around Alan himself, John Skillen et al.. yet there are some who should be wearing stetson hats and have 'bat-wing' doors on their clubs

wrap a dog turd up in gold foil its still a dog turd.. wrap a diamond up in newspaper its still a diamond.. but loits of innocent members of the public who take things at face value, will buy the dog turd, because of how its wrapped.

There are very very few really knowledgable RBSD instructors in the UK.. in over 200 seminars in the last 20 years I have NEVER had to teach above Yellow/Orange belt SDF stuff.. (this mainly from clubs who THINK they teach self-defence but quite obviously dont)

what to do Alan. I wish I knew

all I can say is I know my product is good and I know I am not cheating anyone.... it keeps me poor but honest Ha Ha
Your product is good mate.. sell it any way you feel is good.... you know you can deliver and 'do what it says on the tin'

If the products good it will sell itself. People dont like bullshit.

Nice post dave.
Do you still deal with NAP or have anything else on the go.
I made the mistake once of buying a couple of dvds from them. the quality of information was decent enough, however their advertising is bloody shocking at times and most of it, unless you know about the instructor in question is so ridiculous its untrue. I know of yourself and how you have and do teach, and who you have taught hence id buy the information. the same goes for mr Lee M. needs no introduction. and Kevin O'Hagan.

However, just as a side note I had this pop through my door the other day explaining about this. http://www.multipliedforce.com/ninja/

anyway complete off topic.

Al I think the general consensus so far mate is we all think the same we believe in what you have, we know it works, and there is no shame in going out and selling it or promoting it.

Craig

Thanks guys - thanks for all the nice posts.
Very humbling indeed

I guess the original post was to firstly help me reconcile some issues I have with this. But also to get a general opinion on the subject matter.

Many thanks

good luck with it mate.
cant wait to add it to my collection mate, and will definately be letting people know about it.



Craig

Al

No worries and best of luck with everything. Btw, I got the cd of pictures last night...thanks man Will make sure you get a copy of the book!

Great posts guys!
Myself and Al have had this discussion before regarding recompense in regard to how many years training and researching your own art and what you get in return...at least in monetary terms.
Rick Faye once asked me how much i thought his now wife paid to go on a two day seminar which loosely related to her work (as a chiropractor)
and then he told me it was in excess of $3000....then said he charges $300 for a two day seminar with Guro Inosanto.....someone who to this day is expanding on his already amazing understanding of martial arts.Offset this against some of the characters we see in the martial arts world today making huge amounts of money due to plenty of BS and good marketing.I know they do not have great student retention and are basically whoring the arts we love.sometimes talent,well meant sentiment and a true understanding of what we all are searching for are no match against a shiny suit and some musical forms...although i see more and more RSBD and MMA creeping into their syllabus.
learn to defend yourself studying with these clowns?
no that's really worrying!

ps. Al you really are better than me!
no really!!
great thread guys....sorry if i ranted a little
it's the man flu!
mick x

No worries Mick
Some very valid points there mate, and its good that with a place like this we can all get honest feedback from people we know have used what works and trains it honestly. Without trying to make megabucks by just shelling out loads of that BS which we all see so much of.

Get well soon mate
Craig

Oh my God.. I hadnt seen that 'ninja' thing until now... I cant believe it..

Its almost like two different people exist, because the Ian I know who came to film my DVD's and has been a guest at my home several times, is just NOT that way.. I think his brother is big into 'american style advertising' and it may well be him (Ollie) who writes the blurb..

I am not sure I want to continue to be part of them, because in the original days I was paid a 'consultant's fee' to contact various top liners, and get them to agree to make DVD's.. Kevin O'Hagan, Trev Roberts and several others were amongst the numbers.. I tried desperately not to get involved with the idiots..but now we have a NINJA thing

this is nothing to do with me in any way shape or form guys

NAP treated me well and I liked their end products .. this one though might sink their ship

Hi Dave

I would never imply it was something to do with you mate.
Just wanted to make people aware the crap im getting through my post and in my E-mail. I have your set on lost and hidden arts etc. some of it I may use and some I may not, I have dvds from Russell Stutely also, and a few others. but this to me was taking the complete P*** out of peoples intelligence and people who train in self protection.

If you read through it, I know its hard to stick with it, but see the crap they say you can do after you have watched the dvds and practiced. it is absolutely ridiculous.

I only put the link up as a side thought, ill place it in the anouncements section so people can take a look for themselves.

Glad I showed you something you had not seen dave

Craig

AL,
Ive gone through pretty much the same dilemma as you, its taken me a long time (25 years) to finally bite the bullet and tell myself i am good at what i do and the service i give to my students is to the best of my ability.
Like yourself with your excellent book Fence concepts, i have just released my first series of Dvds, Eddie Quinn The Approach vol 1-3.
My teacher Chris Parkers Guru in Malaysia gave me one sentence of advice which i think may help, he said " Always stay humble in your Approach"
Good luck with the book and i look forward to seeing you again in February at the seminar.
Best regards always,
Eddie

Hi Eddie

Congrats on the new DVD series and thanks for your advice.
I'll be grabbing a copy off you right away - the youtube clips look great.

Looking forward to meeting up in Feb, perhaps we can meet up before then

Take care

Al

Hi Al,

Firstly thanks for your new book which I received this week and it looks great mate and you should be proud of it as it is quality and it is about ‘Al Peasland’s take on the fence’.

You and I have had many conversations until the early hours of the morning about this subject and how my answer to this dilemma is to understand “positioning and branding in a market place”.

The first thing try to do is to be true to ourselves when we decide what our positioning is. For example; for many years Geoff (and others) kept pushing me to come out in the open and teach martial arts / self protection. It was a hard and nerve ranking decision to make as I stood on the shoulders of some great people who taught me since the early 1980’s. I did not know what do in terms of ‘teaching something that had benefits not just fancy features” - and that old fear crept in saying “what could I teach that has not already been taught by the giants who taught me and all the other Guru’s already in the market”.

The answer came in one line that Geoff gave me when we were on one of our 6.00am walks in Coombe Abbey. He said “Tony just be you mate and the sum of all your experiences both in the martial world and your own life”. At that point my positioning became clear. I would combine my 30 years experiences as an engineer; my experiences from my 20 years of global travels and all the cultures I have touched – extreme temperatures and dangerous places I have worked in; my 25 years in the martial arts; add a bit of my Sicilian heritage which has strong family values; throw in some knowledge from all the books I have read and make my own “martial recipe” based on fitness, well being and longevity using the martial arts as the catch all system in which to teach this package. I also asked Alan Macdonald to be my partner - a military man from the paras and foreign legion as that added more authenticity to our self protection and fitness aspects.

It is my recipe. It’s a bit like a blueberry pie, all chef’s can make a blueberry pie and in many cases they all use the same ingredients but just mix them up in a different way. Martial arts are the same, in reality nothing is new, it is just the way we package it and pass on the benefits (not the features) to our paying students. The good guys give sweat and tears in terms of trying to pass on value for money to their students.

My own personal belief about “living a life in the martial arts” is that in the true essence of the arts we should try to live a balanced life. That means making a good enough living and remaining fit and healthy in body and mind so that we can be an example to our students, in other words ‘we are what it says on the tin’. That is true budo. At the end of the day how much money do we really need to be happy. Happiness is directly proportional to the level of control we have on our lives (not how much money we have). The balance is ‘a good living and remaining fit and healthy’ because any less than this means we are not putting into practice what we have learnt. Many martial artists (like all those on this forum) deserve to make a very comfortable living for the benefits they can provide others and for the time they have given to the arts. They have done their tour of duty.

Back to feeling confident and making money; we martial artists should remain humble but at the same time subtly remind ourselves and our students that for the most part we know more about fitness than the average fitness instructor and most of us have spent a small fortune in terms of time, money and emotional investment in learning our craft which includes knowledge on health, nutrition and philosophy. We are worth far more than what we actually charge.

The UK is one of the worst places for making money as many years ago we martial artists set the bar very low in terms of what we charge so we set precedence a long time ago. We can change this over time by educating our potential customers on the benefits we can provide which include many caveats in addition to self protection. The turning point could be when NLP is embraced universally when it comes to teaching martial arts as that will not only add to our teaching portfolio but also enhance our abilities to market, attract and keep students. We have to think in terms of what life coaches and physiatrists charge to maybe reset the bar as to what we are worth and what we are comfortable charging.

There is nothing wrong with making money – as money is just energy which we can give back when ever we want to and as much as we want.

Keep up the good work Alan you are a professional.

Tony. T

Hi Tony

Thanks for the response mate - truly enlightening

x

Nothing wrong with doing good business. The Buddha said 'Right Livelihood' - in other words your 'business' shouldn't cause any harm. If you advertise like an idiot you'll get idiots. If you show the depth and understanding in what you do - you'll get intelligent hard working people that will stay with you for life. I've been a successful professional MA instructor for over 30 years and my calendar is virtually the same year after year, most of my students have been with me for over 20 years, the best advertising you can have is word of mouth and let your existing students bring the right kind of people. Any advertising should be ethical.

If you have integrity and care about what you teach and who you teach it to you'll never have a problem. If you advertise in the NAP way you'll only get the same people that buy the 'X ray specs' and 'bullworkers'.....