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    kaarl

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    power punching and pressure testing

    Post by kaarl on Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:35 pm

    Heres some clips of us training for the one shot KO and yes Im even having a go at punching, rather than teaching it I thought Id have a little play with some punching, Ive been punching a few months now and havent had any wrist problems due to the way Im holding my fist locking the wrist like Dennis jones and Fedor.

    In the middle you can see us doing some pressure testing its always nice to end the year with a bit of fun Twisted Evil

    At the end Im working a particularly heavy bag and punching the wall (Im not hitting the wall at full power). I find these 2 exercises very good for finishing the strike and refining the impact on the end of the strike, a bit like the way Steve Morris uses the wall were he holds different positions to strengthen the shot and improve impact

    cheers

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    Michael W Wright

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Michael W Wright on Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:07 pm

    Hello Kaarl

    Thanks for posting the video, I always respect people who put their art on show for others to see.

    There is no question that you guys are hitting with some serious power there, I for one would not want to be on the end of those shots. I'm assuming you posted the vid looking for feeback, therefore I hope you don't mind if I offer some constructive thoughts. I just have three observations around moving what you are doing from focus mitts to an alive opponent.

    1. Telegraphy. In your efforts to hit with as much force as possible, there is a compromise around telegraphing your intentions. The line up, build up and sheer amount of body movement you are employing could be a disadvantage. The punch that never lands is the weakest punch of all, and the build up employed in the video could certainly offer an opponent a brief window to move. I know people will argue that in the street there is tunnel vision, alcohol consumption etc and people aren't as sharp as they can be. However, I always train to face good fighters, if other factors come into effect that assist me then it is a bonus and nothing more. Therefore, I always try to throw the shot with as little telegraphy as I can, so he feels it before he ever sees it - surprise is a great ally for a KO.

    2. Over Commitment. Again, there is no doubt that you guys are generating some great power. However, from what I see in the video you are acheiving this by compromising your base, balance and centre of gravity. At the end of pretty much every shot thrown you have all thrown yourselves forward and are off balance, which brings me back to point 1 - what if you miss? In Western Boxing you are taught how to throw 100% of your body's power and momentum without any compromise of balance or position, it just a question of torque and mechanics. I think this approach could help make what you do even better, both on points 1 and 2.

    3. Accuracy. Because of the sheer amount of body movement you guys are throwing into the punch, and the size of the arc of that punch, I would be concerned about your accuracy. A KO punch is a combination of targetted power and accuracy, at the point of the jaw or as far down the jawline as possible. There are some mighty swings in your training and I'm just concerned that if you took the gloves off and put the focus mitts down, where would you really be hitting on a person - and what kind of damage could that do to your hands? Again, if the base, torque and mechanics are there then then punch itself only needs to travel about 12 inches, sometimes less. This means you can place far more emphasis on accuracy, and greatly increase your chances of KO. If you check out Al Peaslands DVDs he has some excellent material on this.

    I hope that in someway you've found the post helpful. I've got about a dozen videos on the web and I know how easy it is for any Tom, Dick or Harry to come on and slag your stuff off. I hope you know that is not my intention, just trying to offer some constructive feedback and I hope its taken in that spirit.

    Thanks again for posting

    Michael
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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Peter Skillen on Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:36 pm

    Excellent feedback michael.Kaarl try pressure testing without the big helmet,I know it is for safety but it does take away from the reality of a fight situation. Just have a fight!
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    Al Peasland
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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Al Peasland on Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:51 pm

    Yeah, thanks for the feedback Michael - and the little plug Laughing

    I would re-itterate everything you have mentioned.
    Firstly, much respect to Karl for putting the video on here and all the others you have posted on the net - it takes alot of balls to post your own videos for others to critique

    As Michael said, some definite power there but for me, I have to agree that there is alot of advanced warning in those shots.
    Certainly, most fights you may get away with that, but it will be possible to generate as much power from a closer range, with the added benefit of more accuracy and less telegraphing. However, this has to be trained - and is something most people avoid because it always feels crap and uncomfortbale at first, to train with short range techniques.

    Having said that, the restriction of the garage you train in is a great advantage, far more realistic to be in a confined environment where you can't dance around your opponent - and will end up with you clashing and verticle grappling far more readily

    I also have to agree with Peter.
    Pads are great for longevity of training and for safety - but if you are pressure testing, and you want to introduce the real pressures of fear - you may need to lose the padding for a round or two.
    For sure - the padded assailant training introduces alot of pressures - such as the cardio pressures of having to fight when you're knackered - but take the pads off and the reality goes up another notch.

    Not sure about the wall punching though - if I'm totally honest
    Good for hand conditioning (although, I would argue against too much of that these days - mine now tell me it's going to be cold later today!!) Rolling Eyes
    I also think that it could lead to bad habbits of not commiting through the punch, driving through the target or simulating what happens when you hit someone (ie,. no matter how big they are - they will move - even if only a bit) Laughing

    But, everything has it's place - and fair play to you for offering up some of your training methods

    All credit to you Karl - thanks for posting and I hope you continue to do so - perhaps more of us can do the same (he says, plugging his multiple assailants DVD - in production in the new year) cheers

    Thanks Karl and Happy New Year to you and your family

    Derrick64

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Derrick64 on Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:53 pm

    My computer is on a go slow, so I can't view the clips yet. And I'm not sure who Dennis Jones is (no offence, my lack of knowledge). But if Karl has trained with Fedor and Steve Morris I'd be nervous about giving him any feedback! He might come and show me the error of my ways!
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    kaarl

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by kaarl on Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:22 pm

    feedback is always appreciated,




    heres some links to help you understand the style of striking that i preffer

    http://instinctive-combatives.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=27.0

    http://instinctive-combatives.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1242.0


    I will get back when ive got more time

    All the best guys,

    cheers[img][/img]
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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Peter Skillen on Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:17 pm

    If that bag had arms and threw a right hook/upper cut at the same time or just before Dennis how long do you think he'd be standing for? (not very Long I.M.O.). Also if the cage fight punch missed where would the fighter land? (On his arse) Just some thoughts Laughing

    Derrick64

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Derrick64 on Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:35 pm

    I can see the moving inserted image on Karls psot, but I can't get anything from the links yet. Are you saying that they over commit? Sacrificing too much in the way of balance in order to get power?

    Dennis jones

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Dennis jones on Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:06 pm

    Peter

    I worked on the doors for 26 years; lots of fights and lots of people had right hooks and upper cuts Laughing

    Dennis

    PS I can even do those punches that you talk about!
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    Michael W Wright

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Michael W Wright on Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:19 am

    For me, the point isn't CAN you get away with or HAVE you got away with such a punch, the question is - why do you even need to?

    As stated previously, if your goal is to achieve the KO then you can do this without compromising any of your position or defence. If you understand the art of Boxing then you can achieve exactly the same KO power without telegraphing or over commiting. If you doubt that, go learn from a professional boxer.

    Rather than gamble everything on such a huge motion that can go wrong and leave you exposed, why not employ the correct mechanics and targetting to do exactly the same job, far more efficiently?

    Or maybe I'm just being all JKD Twisted Evil
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    kaarl

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by kaarl on Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:48 am

    Thanks again for the detailed and honest response, its one I can fully understand coming from guys with a heavy boxing background I actually had a very similar view at one time.

    I’ve tried many styles including the style you talk about but it’s not my preferred style what I’m doing on the clip is actually a specific style of striking that was designed around a specific job, this type of striking can often just be placed in the brawling bracket but it’s not. I’ve been training under Dennis Jones for a while now and this is the same style of striking he found worked best for him there’s few people out there with his experience and depth of knowledge or honesty.

    I’ve looked at many types of striking and I have to say personally for power striking for the street I think that what Dennis does suits the situation perfectly , there are similar styles used by various fighters like Fedor Emelianenko his record speaks for itself Tyson had a similar style Badr Hari from the k-1 has some of the finest power striking I’ve seen they are all very similar just altered to suit the situation/rules but basically hitting with as much force as you can generate.

    when you look at my attempted at power punching I’m not trying to box its full power street punching rather than a style based on boxing, but when you put the gloves on (my hands aren’t conditioned enough to hit without)it can often be perceived as bad boxing but it’s just a totally different style. I like to call it the art of the poleaxe or the one shot kill I think he’s taken it to a level that’s rarely seen or understood it’s certainly not just the one big shot, I find the movement is also very dynamic and natural and with more depth than a lot of people ever get to realise

    I truly believe this style allows you to hit harder than any other form or style I’ve seen regardless of position or distance and I think you guys would defiantly gain from a bit more knowledge in this style,. With Dennis being a senior instructor at the BCA perhaps it’s time Dennis did a master class so everyone can have a taste and get a better understand of what he’s doing?
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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Peter Skillen on Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:32 pm

    Dennis
    I don't doubt for one second that you can. Even so i still think that it was not solely the punch (although that was the defining factor of course) that enabled you to knock out so many people but the fact that you understood it and when to use it. I don't think that would be your preferred choice of punch in let's say a one on square go but it would be for a different situation such as from a deceptive stance/situation which you must have employed many hundreds of times on the door. Also do I think that Karl would have the same success using that punch as you...NO! Because he simply doesn't have the same level of experience as you, yet. Regarding the hook/uppercut I ment that if the other person threw one of either at the same time the chances of them connecting with the person throwing your style of punch would be very high as I believe your style of punch leaves you wide open for counter attack along the centre line and the opposing side to the punch.
    I too believe there are more stable positions to throw a punch from that do not sacrifice balance.
    Mike Tyson's punches in his early days where always thrown with accuracy, balance and from a stable base thats how he produced so much power because he punched thru his legs.

    Dennis jones

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Dennis jones on Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:06 pm

    Hi Peter/Michael

    Some excellent points that you both have brought up. I feel that these posts (from us all) will be both pleasant and informative and that pleases me a lot. I am not here on this forum to try and win arguments, that just seems pointless and a waste of time to me. But I will over the next few days post in depth on this topic putting forward my 'thoughts' on my methodology etc. I look forward to a pleasant exchange of information.

    Dennis

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Dennis jones on Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:37 pm

    One

    On guard! Hands high or low?

    As many people know an answer to such a question depends upon the ‘situation and environment’ that they might find themselves in. However, it goes without saying (even if I am saying it!) that if your sport is boxing or whatever you would enter into the bout/fight using the protocols and proven strategies of your chosen sport. For boxing it would generally be (especially when in striking range) hands held high to protect the head and elbows in to protect the ribs etc. (And no flapping of elbows when punching!)

    When I first started training in Kyokushinkai karate in 1973 we were taught, in preparation for ‘dojo knock down fighting’, to fight one hand high and one hand low. Training under some of the Japanese, as well as, some top British instructors they all used one hand high and one hand low to pretty good effect. Yet by 1978 everybody, or so it seemed, were punching whilst at the same time using the opposite hand for a face cover. And with the advent of ‘knock down tournaments’ Kyokusinkai practitioners using both hands held high to protect the head were by the late 1970s training like western boxers with kicking and kneeing thrown into the mix as well. However, we still trained to fight at a particular distance, not as close as Judo and a little further apart than boxing…What is the primary distance of a street fight?


    Bouncing and street fighting

    One night in 1980 when I first started bouncing I was working at the back of a night club. Working on one side of a pair of fire escape doors, my job was to stop customers coming in and out through the fire exit. On the other side of the doors was a long flight of stairs that went from the third storey down to the car park and safety if a fire happened inside the club. Half way down the metal stairs was a landing. Around closing time a fight had gone off involving 5, 6 or maybe 7 people. They had fought by the fire doors and then down the stairs on to the landing. When I and a couple of other doorman got to them, we barged the lot down the remaining half flight of stairs and away from club. Very quickly it’s over for us and I am standing with my colleagues at the top of the stairs enjoying the fight of which I had no intention of trying to stop. I had now become a passive observer. However, what happened next forced me to re-evaluate certain aspects of my training.

    The fighting and arguments had stopped and one of the combatants then casually walks over to a skip and discreetly picks up half a house brick. With his arms at his side he walks over to one of the other guys and without taking a fighting stance, a high guard or a split second pause to get his balance, he just hits this guy full in the face with the half house brick. The man got a quick glimpse of what was coming but the half house brick just ploughed through his attempted guard. He went down like a sack of shit and the fight had gone from a brawl between a group of squaddies (British soldiers) and civilians into something far more serious. Everybody stopped fighting and even though I was not involved my heartbeat went through the ceiling. The guy that used the brick took to heels and did a runner.

    Quite simply what I had seen was as far as I was concerned an assassination attempt, which was also incredibly effective in its simplicity. Not long after that I saw a similar drama unfold in which the assailant used a claw hammer. In both cases nobody, not me nor any of the bouncers that I was working with thought the ‘armed man’ was at a disadvantage because he kept his hands low and slightly behind his back as he walked up to his victim! Nor did we take it upon ourselves to think that we could easily defend ourselves against such dangerous people. But what I saw that night (and on many other occasions over the years) was an effective pre-emptive strike. It was executed without a pause, without a stable static stance and interestingly quite a few of them started with a small leap-which covered distance very quickly-into the intended victim.

    Driven by hate it seemed to me that the antagonist only had to satisfy two criteria:

    • Full intention to use a weapon
    • Full intention to carry out the attack.

    Having made the decision none of them, so it seemed to me, were concerned about being able to adjust their game plan once the wheels of motion were brought into play-it really was a case of ‘I do what I want!’ From such experiences in the early 1980s I decided that I must ‘try’ and develop what is known in traditional karate jutsu as the one punch kill, but I’ll digress first.


    Thugs, drunks, coke and pill heads

    When confronted say by two guys in a nightclub, pub (bar) or in the street it ‘should’ be obvious by the way they carry themselves, their language and demeanour that they have evil intentions towards you. You are forced, because you have no way of extracting yourself from the situation, to take the ‘first’ one out of the game. However, it has always struck me as being foolhardy to put your arms up into a guard position a moment before you launch your attack. Not only are you ‘arresting’ the momentum of your hand technique but you are also telegraphing your intentions ‘long’ before you execute the technique. And it is just as foolish to put your guard up if you have to walk a few yards towards an opponent and especially so in a crowd where, because you have identified your intentions, you could easily get sucker punched or bottled from the side or from behind by one of his mates! And anyway once a punch is on its way towards the offending face/head then by default there’s your high guard for you!

    An argument has been put forward where ‘leaping in’ and hitting a pad with an elbow technique (YouTube clip (3:18) is impractical.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iRmv1LEk5E&feature=related

    ‘Using the “wrong technique” because of how far I am away from the targets’ has in my opinion not been full understood. Irrespective of where I am as I launch my attack, or even if I am 10 yards away from my intended target and I have to walk up and then launch my attack, it is obvious that at the point of contact I am just an elbow distance away from my target. If that were not so I would miss or hit the opponent with both my shoulder and body weight! As one strategy amongst a number of strategies I have ‘jumped in’ [It was executed without a pause, without a stable static stance and interestingly quite a few of them started with a small leap-which covered distance very quickly-into the intended victim.] on many occasions in a nightclub/bar fight to good effect.

    In a fight or even a brawl balance is always dynamic-it is on the move. Good balance or even bad balance changes from split second to second and in a nightclub in close proximity to numerous other people with some trying to grab and punch you, being stable in a static position could prove highly uncomfortable even if you maintain a high guard. Keep on the move and constantly change position and preferable to your own advantage so that in the melee you set your opponent/s up. It should be noted though, that even running away requires ‘your’ dynamic balance to be successful!

    Irrespective of what martial art you practice it is not common for anybody whilst fighting in their chosen discipline to end up on a life support machine or even dead. The risk on the street or in a nightclub can be far greater and scarier than many people care to consider. It is not about punching a few drunks to get a name. Doing that is easy but even that can be more dangerous than you think-who is their brother, their dad or their friends? It’s only mug bouncers that do that sort of thing. Yet, on the other hand try imagining what it’s like to fight a drunk that’s trying to shove a broken bottle in your face! Alcohol is one thing but the biggest problem since the early 1990s is drugs especially cocaine, now imagine fighting one or two guys out of their faces on cocaine. Immune to pain, having no fear, full of hate because of their fucked up minds…Flesh and blood cannot fight numbers or weapons ‘that well’, and as a bouncer I have learnt to live with that reality for 26 years.


    Punching

    In the link:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TYI3ClpP9c&feature=related

    the leather bag weighs around 94 lb, the bottom half has the density of Granulated silver spoon sugar. Prior to this I had spent many years punching a makiware and had also spent around 3 years punching a concrete post and about the same time on a sand filled Wing Chun wall (3) pads. I also spent many years, on and off, training on boxing pads as well as light and heavy punch bags. At the time of this training session (1993) I was working on correct body alignment for delivering maximum power through two knuckles (seiken). I had been working as a bouncer for 13 years and had by then been in many fights. (Experience-what looks like me doing body shots on the bag are in the main head shots. People bending over-it happens a lot in street fighting!) For me it was obvious, I needed to have as much impact in my punches as I could possible generate from ALL MY BODY-tendons, muscles, nerve connections and connective tissue and also my full body weight (approx 200 lbs). My knuckles had to be tough and hard to take the tremendous stress, and the bones in my arms had be in perfect (punching) alignment so that I could use my body weight, both in sliding and jumping, to its best effect.

    I have never considered myself the hardest hitter around but I know that there ain’t that many people who could hit that bag bare knuckles as hard as I could. I never grazed the skin on my knuckles nor broke my hand which on that bag was a very easy thing to do especially punching the bag without bandage wraps and bag mitts. In reference to grazing the skin, I rarely skimmed the bag with a punch either left or right hand. My seiken would dig into it feeling as if the two knuckles were reaching into the middle of the bag. Although I worked on other ‘stuff’ like wrestling, grabbing, locks, kicks etc., my martial art for self defence has always centred on hand techniques. In 1973 I was taught a basic karate punch and following the traditional precept of continual training, practice and tempering with experience, I have, some millions of punches later-1000 punches a day for three years started me off-evolved into what I am. I don’t swing my punches-they come off tangent from a sphere, and have proven very effective on many occasions over the years. My karate is as simple as walking up to somebody and hitting them, something I saw some 29 years ago. In my younger days I wanted to be just as lethal as the man with the brick, but be able to do it unarmed. In my journey I have learnt a few things yet one thing that does stand out in every fight that I have ever seen or been involved in:

    There are no rules in a street fight except your own morality.

    And as I got older I have learnt that there is more to martial arts than fighting.

    Regards Dennis Jones
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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Peter Skillen on Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:59 am

    Excellent post Dennis and what I really got involved in this forum for. I will read this again once more tomorrow and give you my thoughts.

    A couple of questions Dennis! What would you do if you were attacked with this punch? How would you defend Against it and what would be the back up plan if the one shot missed?

    Thanks again for your insight.
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    kaarl

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by kaarl on Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:14 pm

    Ive always found Dennis very insightful and honest focusing purely on facts from his experience,I think this comes across well in his articles
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    martyn

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by martyn on Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:32 pm

    Hi,guys..I've just found out about this forum and must say it is nice to find somewhere you can give an opinion without being gang mauled. I think this is an excellent topic, much more helpful than 'open or closed hand' debates.
    I can totally understand all views,I have trained over the past 20 years in one art or another,mainly JKD looking for the best real self protection I could find.I remember many years ago{10ish}I heard of Geoff Thompson via reading magazines,and thought I would give his material a try,and I loved it.I have never met nor trained with Geoff,but do remember learning a very valuable lesson from him.

    "LEARN TO HIT F*CKIN HARD" I think were his exact words.It was something that should have been obvious to me,but I was too focused on more technique.

    So I started beasting a heavy bag,and conditioning my hands,working the pads e.t.c,and over time developed a pretty heavy punch,but in training on the pads and with partners,I noticed that the form I was "stuck" in,keeping stance..gaurd..balance..posture..etc,was severley limiting the power I had developed when I was alone with the bag.

    I am now firmly focused on the "power" road,obviously moving and positioning,only without set stances or worrying about a gaurd,or if I look right,and I must thank Dennis Jones for that.Who knows if what i'm doing will give me success in a conflict? I hope I don't have to try,as although I did work the doors for a few years,I certainly didn't have many fights to talk about and now live my life as peacefull as I can.

    After training with Dennis,I can definitely look back at my time on the door,and wish I had met him back then,I certainly would have been more knowledgeable on how to train for what I was doing,instead of trying to make my training fit the job I was doing.

    Keep at it Kaarl and one day you can take those pillows off your hands mate!
    Good job with the forum guys,I look forward to more Very Happy
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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Peter Skillen on Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:03 pm

    Welcome Martyn. Don't get me wrong on this I absolutely agree with hitting hard VERY HARD and training for one shot but I just feel that that one shot needs to be good from all aspects of the punch.
    The first thing I teach In self defence Is not to try and take your sport into the street but keep sport fighting and street fighting separate entities.
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    martyn

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by martyn on Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:40 pm

    Hi Peter,cheers for the reply,I totally understand the Sport/Street difference,and I think that is what had me confused for so many years,I wanted to train for the street,but found that a lot of what was being taught,was sports that people assumed would work on the street.
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    Michael W Wright

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Michael W Wright on Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:55 pm

    The only difference between the sport and the street is the individual who steps from one to the other.

    All of the most functional people I have trained with (including the guys on this forum) have taken alive, functional arts such as Boxing, Muay Thai and Grappling and made them work just fine. It requires just a little common sense and experience to translate these arts to the pavement.
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    Peter Skillen

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Peter Skillen on Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:02 pm

    Experience (of those streets) being the most important factor...
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    martyn

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by martyn on Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:20 pm

    Mr.Wright..."The only difference between the sport and the street is the individual who steps from one to the other." .....sorry mate but I feel that there are others,...sports have medical help at hand...streets will watch you die.
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    Michael W Wright

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by Michael W Wright on Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:59 pm

    My comment was in the context of the thread i.e. purely referring to the practical application of technique. It wasn't my intention to provoke a wider discussion around all the inherent factors of a street situation. In that context I completely agree with you, though perhaps minus the melodrama Very Happy
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    martyn

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by martyn on Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:59 pm

    Okay sorry,that does look a bit dramatic! Very Happy What I mean is that a lot of people train for sports/street in the same way,and in my opinion the practical application is not simply transferred to a street situation.

    I know a punch is a punch etc,but for example Jab Cross Hook style combos on the pads may be good for boxers,as they get points for just landing clean combos,but if a rapid set of shots like that doesn't k.o. or severely incapacitate somebody,then I don't see it as street worthy.If it were then a lot of boxers would be felled with every jab cross that landed.

    Please don't think that I am knocking boxers as street fighters,as any good boxer would just spark you with a left hook,I just think that for somebody only interested in S.P. should focus on strongest hand first big shots,if it doesn't land...then keep throwing it!Fast flurries may land more times but at the cost of the damage caused being reduced.

    Of course there is more to a scrap,I am just using a punch as an example of how I feel sport style strikes are different. Smile
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    kaarl

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

    Post by kaarl on Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:32 pm

    very good point martyn and very valid in my eyes

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    Re: power punching and pressure testing

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